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	<title>Comments on: Harold Bloom and Me against the World</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Cannon</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73393</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Cannon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2004 06:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I feel sad that I missed out on this whole discussion.  I vote for more of this kind of talk on BCC!  Thanks Kristine and Jeremy.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for my personal opinions about art I think I (and most Americans) achieve what most people would find the worst of both worlds.  I strongly believe that taste is culturally constructed rather than objective, but at the same time I enjoy an elitist feeling of superiority when I consider my own highly evolved aesthetic preferences.  But seriously, I don&#039;t mind making artistic judgements but I do think both low and high art can be great.  I don&#039;t think we see any greatness in contemporary mormon pop music though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel sad that I missed out on this whole discussion.  I vote for more of this kind of talk on BCC!  Thanks Kristine and Jeremy.  </p>
<p>As for my personal opinions about art I think I (and most Americans) achieve what most people would find the worst of both worlds.  I strongly believe that taste is culturally constructed rather than objective, but at the same time I enjoy an elitist feeling of superiority when I consider my own highly evolved aesthetic preferences.  But seriously, I don&#8217;t mind making artistic judgements but I do think both low and high art can be great.  I don&#8217;t think we see any greatness in contemporary mormon pop music though.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73413</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2004 22:34:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/04/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73413</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ps--you&#039;re right; Brahms and Bruckner was a dumb example--no one in her/his right mind would argue for Bruckner except in some very limited sense (a couple of his motets are more interesting than &quot;Warum is das Licht gegeben&quot;, maybe)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ps&#8211;you&#8217;re right; Brahms and Bruckner was a dumb example&#8211;no one in her/his right mind would argue for Bruckner except in some very limited sense (a couple of his motets are more interesting than &#8220;Warum is das Licht gegeben&#8221;, maybe)</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73391</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2004 12:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/04/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73391</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmmm.  Sorry I creep you out.  I&#039;m much more circumspect at church than I am here about my disagreements with certain ideas and positions of the brethren (there&#039;s a time and a place for everything), so there&#039;s no particular reason why that parent would have been suspicious of me on those grounds.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for sticking to hymns:  the handbook&#039;s pretty clear that hymns should be the main resource, but it also clearly leaves room for other &quot;appropriate&quot; selections, and that&#039;s the problem.  It says &quot;some music in a popular style,&quot; rather than &quot;music in a popular style&quot; is not appropriate for Sacrament Mtg.  It doesn&#039;t define appropriate, and it leaves the final determination to the bishopric, even though the Ward Music Chairman is supposed to coordinate the musical numbers.  So there&#039;s a potential conflict set up by the policy which conceivably pits the Ward Music Chairman, who is supposed to know something about music, against the bishopric, whose members may or may not know anything about music.  Fortunately, I&#039;ve never been in a situation where I butted heads with a bishopric, but the policies are far from clear, and it&#039;s easy to imagine why people have widely varying ideas of what&#039;s &quot;appropriate.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm.  Sorry I creep you out.  I&#8217;m much more circumspect at church than I am here about my disagreements with certain ideas and positions of the brethren (there&#8217;s a time and a place for everything), so there&#8217;s no particular reason why that parent would have been suspicious of me on those grounds.</p>
<p>As for sticking to hymns:  the handbook&#8217;s pretty clear that hymns should be the main resource, but it also clearly leaves room for other &#8220;appropriate&#8221; selections, and that&#8217;s the problem.  It says &#8220;some music in a popular style,&#8221; rather than &#8220;music in a popular style&#8221; is not appropriate for Sacrament Mtg.  It doesn&#8217;t define appropriate, and it leaves the final determination to the bishopric, even though the Ward Music Chairman is supposed to coordinate the musical numbers.  So there&#8217;s a potential conflict set up by the policy which conceivably pits the Ward Music Chairman, who is supposed to know something about music, against the bishopric, whose members may or may not know anything about music.  Fortunately, I&#8217;ve never been in a situation where I butted heads with a bishopric, but the policies are far from clear, and it&#8217;s easy to imagine why people have widely varying ideas of what&#8217;s &#8220;appropriate.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy's Fascinating Woman</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73416</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy's Fascinating Woman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2004 08:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/04/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73416</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, I just need to pipe in...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Brahms and Bruckner? I&#039;d like to hear the argument for Bruckner.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, I wholeheartedly agree with the comment equating mormon pop with priestcraft - just visit the Kenneth Cope website. He has his own little &quot;study group&quot; thing going on. One entry in his &quot;daily journal&quot; went on and on about how now he realizes his music isn&#039;t his creation...it&#039;s really the Lord speaking through him. So, reading this, I was wondering - if I don&#039;t pay money for one of his CD&#039;s, am I missing out on some important info?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I had to teach a leadership training class on music in worship a few months ago, so I had to research this topic extensively. It&#039;s pretty clear from the handbooks and from every message we&#039;ve gotten from the general authorities that we should stick with the hymns, especially in sacrament meeting. I think the problem comes from performers thinking they&#039;re too good for hymns (and who are too lazy to find a good arrangement of a hymn). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, Kristine, I would have to say you were right to stick to your guns on the Saturday&#039;s Warrior, but, considering everything I&#039;ve read from you along the lines of criticizing the church and the bretheren, (which, if I&#039;m being honest, kind of creeps me out sometimes) I can understand why the parents might have been suspicious of you pulling the old &quot;handbook says we can&#039;t&quot; card.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;From what I&#039;ve read, most of the counsel on music in worship refers primariily to Sacrament Meeting. Maybe Young Women can get their scoopy, airy, pop fix in opening exercises just before they say the theme. Personally, I&#039;d like to find an excuse to play Squeeze&#039;s &quot;Some Fantastic Place&quot; in a Relief Society lesson sometime, but I&#039;m not sure it&#039;d go over that well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I just need to pipe in&#8230;</p>
<p>Brahms and Bruckner? I&#8217;d like to hear the argument for Bruckner.</p>
<p>Also, I wholeheartedly agree with the comment equating mormon pop with priestcraft &#8211; just visit the Kenneth Cope website. He has his own little &#8220;study group&#8221; thing going on. One entry in his &#8220;daily journal&#8221; went on and on about how now he realizes his music isn&#8217;t his creation&#8230;it&#8217;s really the Lord speaking through him. So, reading this, I was wondering &#8211; if I don&#8217;t pay money for one of his CD&#8217;s, am I missing out on some important info?</p>
<p>I had to teach a leadership training class on music in worship a few months ago, so I had to research this topic extensively. It&#8217;s pretty clear from the handbooks and from every message we&#8217;ve gotten from the general authorities that we should stick with the hymns, especially in sacrament meeting. I think the problem comes from performers thinking they&#8217;re too good for hymns (and who are too lazy to find a good arrangement of a hymn). </p>
<p>So, Kristine, I would have to say you were right to stick to your guns on the Saturday&#8217;s Warrior, but, considering everything I&#8217;ve read from you along the lines of criticizing the church and the bretheren, (which, if I&#8217;m being honest, kind of creeps me out sometimes) I can understand why the parents might have been suspicious of you pulling the old &#8220;handbook says we can&#8217;t&#8221; card.</p>
<p>From what I&#8217;ve read, most of the counsel on music in worship refers primariily to Sacrament Meeting. Maybe Young Women can get their scoopy, airy, pop fix in opening exercises just before they say the theme. Personally, I&#8217;d like to find an excuse to play Squeeze&#8217;s &#8220;Some Fantastic Place&#8221; in a Relief Society lesson sometime, but I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;d go over that well.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73392</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2004 06:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/04/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73392</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I do actually have some experience:)  I&#039;m convinced, based on that, that most congregations can be &quot;trained&quot; in the space of a year or so to appreciate hymns well-performed and good classical stuff that&#039;s not over-the-top.  I have a pretty standard progression of stuff I do to move the choir and congregation away from JKP et al. and towards less popsy stuff which they end up liking better.  Youth are a little harder, but it can be done--you still get that crappy breathy singing from the girls, but you can convince them to sing decent stuff.  Some wards I&#039;ve been able to get the boys to sing, some not--it depends on whether chorus is something cool kids do at their school or not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do actually have some experience:)  I&#8217;m convinced, based on that, that most congregations can be &#8220;trained&#8221; in the space of a year or so to appreciate hymns well-performed and good classical stuff that&#8217;s not over-the-top.  I have a pretty standard progression of stuff I do to move the choir and congregation away from JKP et al. and towards less popsy stuff which they end up liking better.  Youth are a little harder, but it can be done&#8211;you still get that crappy breathy singing from the girls, but you can convince them to sing decent stuff.  Some wards I&#8217;ve been able to get the boys to sing, some not&#8211;it depends on whether chorus is something cool kids do at their school or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve E.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73420</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve E.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2004 02:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/04/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73420</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[True that beauty and complexity are not synonymous; for example, I am very complex.  Yet my beauty is debatable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&#039;s not just a matter of familiarity -- you have more confidence than I do, I think, in the willingness/ability of church members to expand their horizons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True that beauty and complexity are not synonymous; for example, I am very complex.  Yet my beauty is debatable.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not just a matter of familiarity &#8212; you have more confidence than I do, I think, in the willingness/ability of church members to expand their horizons.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73399</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2004 01:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/04/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73399</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If it&#039;s just a matter of familiarity, then it shouldn&#039;t take too long to get people familiar with the good stuff.  And beauty and complexity are not synonymous!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it&#8217;s just a matter of familiarity, then it shouldn&#8217;t take too long to get people familiar with the good stuff.  And beauty and complexity are not synonymous!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve E.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73412</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve E.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2004 00:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/04/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73412</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Now, now, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s all that ridiculous -- music that is artistically beautiful or complex is not necessarily going to fit members&#039; expectations of traditional sacrament music. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess I&#039;m saying that those expectations, more than anything, are the chief concern for church music, and that&#039;s what the policy is really about: putting out a consistent &#039;product&#039;.  When people go to SacMtg, they expect a certain type of experience, and the point of the policy is to keep the music within a specific range.  I don&#039;t think that bad music is more likely to bring in the Spirit; but I think that some really good music may not be felt via the Spirit in some members, because it is not what they had in mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not explaining myself very well, am I?  Please, please tell me that at least I&#039;m getting my gist across.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now, now, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s all that ridiculous &#8212; music that is artistically beautiful or complex is not necessarily going to fit members&#8217; expectations of traditional sacrament music. </p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;m saying that those expectations, more than anything, are the chief concern for church music, and that&#8217;s what the policy is really about: putting out a consistent &#8216;product&#8217;.  When people go to SacMtg, they expect a certain type of experience, and the point of the policy is to keep the music within a specific range.  I don&#8217;t think that bad music is more likely to bring in the Spirit; but I think that some really good music may not be felt via the Spirit in some members, because it is not what they had in mind.</p>
<p>Not explaining myself very well, am I?  Please, please tell me that at least I&#8217;m getting my gist across.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73417</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2004 00:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/04/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73417</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve, that&#039;s ridiculous.  Good music is by definition (my definition, anyway) conducive to the spirit.  If it&#039;s obviously showy or difficult, then it&#039;s a poor choice for Sacrament Meeting.  You don&#039;t have to &quot;develop critical or sensitive ears&quot; in members; they&#039;ll respond naturally to good stuff.  It helps not to try to start with a movement from Bach&#039;s B minor mass, but you don&#039;t really have to think too hard to come up with good music that is accessible and conducive to worship.  It is hard to find good stuff that goes for cheap emotional thrills instead of actual spiritual experience, but that&#039;s a long post for another day.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&#039;m not sure I even entirely understand your question, Steve--do you really think BAD music (Michael McLean, etc.) is more likely to bring the Spirit into Sacrament Mtg.?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, that&#8217;s ridiculous.  Good music is by definition (my definition, anyway) conducive to the spirit.  If it&#8217;s obviously showy or difficult, then it&#8217;s a poor choice for Sacrament Meeting.  You don&#8217;t have to &#8220;develop critical or sensitive ears&#8221; in members; they&#8217;ll respond naturally to good stuff.  It helps not to try to start with a movement from Bach&#8217;s B minor mass, but you don&#8217;t really have to think too hard to come up with good music that is accessible and conducive to worship.  It is hard to find good stuff that goes for cheap emotional thrills instead of actual spiritual experience, but that&#8217;s a long post for another day.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I even entirely understand your question, Steve&#8211;do you really think BAD music (Michael McLean, etc.) is more likely to bring the Spirit into Sacrament Mtg.?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve E.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/04/01/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73400</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve E.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Apr 2004 23:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/04/harold-bloom-and-me-against-the-world/#comment-73400</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeremy/Kristine,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is sacrament meeting really an appropriate forum to try and develop critical or sensitive ears in church members?  It would seem to me that such concerns would be secondary at best, to the overall concerns of keeping the spirit and keeping in line with church policies.  In other words, there are certain conventions of accepted church music, which would seem to supercede efforts to improve music quality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy/Kristine,</p>
<p>Is sacrament meeting really an appropriate forum to try and develop critical or sensitive ears in church members?  It would seem to me that such concerns would be secondary at best, to the overall concerns of keeping the spirit and keeping in line with church policies.  In other words, there are certain conventions of accepted church music, which would seem to supercede efforts to improve music quality.</p>
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