Comments on: The Brain Drain or Where Have All the Women Gone? http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/ A Mormon Blog Tue, 14 Feb 2012 07:52:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Steve Evans http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116423 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116423 “Isn’t it the case that without a unanimous vote by the congregation, an individual cannot be set apart before some kind of ad hoc administrative hearing to air the concerns of the opposition?”

No, that’s not the case. Sustaining someone isn’t a vote, it’s a chance for us to show our support. When we choose to raise our hands doesn’t affect the outcome.

]]> By: Clark http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116424 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116424 “The way I see it, priesthood function is organized to keep men interested in church”

I’m sure I’ll be shouted down, but I think there is more than a little truth in the above.

“I just get sick of the Sisyphean effort of banging my head against the stake glass ceiling”

Isn’t part of the problem how we think of church like a corporation we’re trying to work up in? Why do we need to do our service through the church? (As many others mentioned) I’ll be quite honest that I’ve *never* understood why people want leadership positions. They take time, give stress, and so on. I honestly think that we ought to be anxiously engaged in a good cause on our own. I really that half our problem is seeing the church like a worldly corporation where leadership = power = value. I think far too many men think that. (Oh how I hated the recent RM want-to-be GAs and their comments in Sunday School) I also think that far too many women buy into it when they look at gender and the church.

As for me – I try to stay as far away from leadership callings as possible! Heavens, I’m nervous enough with my recent calling to Weblos assistant.

]]> By: Steve Evans http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116425 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116425 “thinking about what “priesthood” means, and how it is related to administration.”

I thought the two were synonyms. No, really — isn’t the priesthood an administrative body? I’m speaking of priesthood as a group, not a power. If we found some way to separate the two definitions more neatly, perhaps that would facilitate the introduction of women in Church hierarchy.

]]> By: Kristine http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116426 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116426 Ah, yes, but Julie, what if you wanted to be an Institute Director? Or a full-time seminary teacher?

]]> By: Randy http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116427 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116427 Christina,

I am not unsympathetic to your post, but if you wanted to set up a program to help at-risk youth in our ward, no one (and I mean no one) would even think of slowing you down. And if you were a YW leader, I can’t even imagine anyone would even require you to clear it with anyone (depending, of course, on what exactly this program entails). I suppose the leaders would probably like to eventually know how things are going. Still, my experience has been that most church leaders are more than happy to let others do the heavy lifting and don’t want to get in the way of people doing good. I take it that your experience has been different. I’d be curious to hear your story.

]]> By: Randy http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116428 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116428 Christina,

I’ll see what our Bishop thinks about having a meeting with the RS. I don’t know how likely it is that we would get much constructive criticism though in this type of meeting, though. Maybe I should grease the wheels. I’m scheduled to talk in sacrament meeting next month. Perhaps I’ll tell the story of the Daughters of Zelophehad. ;) See http://www.timesandseasons.org/archives/000827.html#more .

I think we do a pretty good job here of conveying feedback (from all) back to the stake, and I think the stake does a spectacular job of incorporating that feedback into their actions. This is largely a result of the fact that our current stake president is, in all seriousness, the best stake president I have ever known.

As for some of the unwritten rules that Steve mentions, we disregard many of those with impunity here in our ward. I’m responsible for planning sacrament meetings. We often have meetings with only women, we often have meetings where women speak last and the men speak first, we often have meetings where only women give the prayers. Alas, no sacrament meetings conducted by women, but there is only so much I can do.

I’m all for not assuming traditional males roles have to stay that way. Do you have something in mind? I’m not sure what you are getting at. I’d be more than happy to let women take the lead in giving blessings to others, etc., as they did in the good ol’ days, but the handbook, as currently written, doesn’t allow that.

At the end of the day, I don’t know that your suggestions are going to do much to help me “share the burden.” If anything, these tasks are going to give me more to do, not less.

And on a final note, no way I’m going to take my wife’s name; but then again, she didn’t take mine either. ;)

]]> By: Steve Evans http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116429 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116429 Christina, a great deal of your post seems to rely on the premise that our Church is concerned with efficient use of resources. What gives you that impression (no, really)?

I agree with you, though, and it’s something Sumer and I have also discussed at some length, because there’s no question that she is smarter and more capable than I am. However, the prevalence of ‘special projects’ in the Church leaves some room for women to show their quality: witness the jubilee and other events. It’s not much, and it’s not an ongoing administrative role, but it’s becoming increasingly important.

]]> By: Randy http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116430 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116430 Christine, to answer your question, I certainly don’t dispute (how could I?) that men are afforded more leadership responsibilities in the church than women. My point, however, is that, in my experience, local leaders generally do not get in the way of people trying to help others. Why would they? I’m sorry to hear about your experience up in NY. You should come try your idea here in Atlanta!

I understand your not wanting to have this discussion degenerate into griping. So, given current circumstances, what are we to do? What do you mean “share the burden”? I currently serve in a Bishopric and would love to share. Any suggestions?

]]> By: Christina http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116431 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116431 D. and Sumer,
Agreed, no one really cares if we leave the church, certainly not anyone in church leadership. And, frankly, that is as it should be. The church shouldn’t be the parent to our rebellious teenage soul. We are responsible for our own choices, and I wouldn’t – and haven’t – left the church to make a statement. But, this just begs the question of how we can live with consonance within an organization that is sexist (or whatever -ist that injures each of our selves). I’ve in the past tried to have pockets of safe havens – groups of friends to discuss issues with – in order to buffer the larger church culture. This helps me function and stay in the church in a reasonably happy way, but it doesn’t do much to strengthen or change the church organization at large. This is where I see the biggest problem.

]]> By: Christina http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/23/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116432 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/the-brain-drain-or-where-have-all-the-women-gone/#comment-116432 D., I agree, the burden on men in the church is great. Part of my point. We all work hard in this city, whether it is in music, the arts, law, business, science. No one gets a free ticket here (or if they do, please call me and tell me how you did it!). I feel awful for our bishop’s wife, our stake president’s wife, etc. What’s to be done? Share the burden around, let’s be more creative about how we allocate resources. My father was bishop when my parents had six kids and one of them dying of cancer. I’ve never heard him gripe about it, but it sure was hard on Mom.

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