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	<title>Comments on: Bowling for Fahrenheit</title>
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	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Blaine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/26/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118340</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Blaine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118340</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I also don&#039;t think that what Moore is doing is satanic, I think it&#039;s pretty ridiculous to praise his presentation skills. If what we are after is distinguishing truth from error, we should wish that everyone had equally clear presentation skills, not that a film producer is able to make a movie in which there is inaccurate information he does not have to support and for which he does not have to answer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And speaking to where the burden falls, I agree that it is every citizens duty to self inform themself. But what percentage of the the voters of this country can we count on to undertake such a task?  In theory, we should have no problem with anyone expressing their views however they want, but (speaking pragmatically) history has shown us that large groups of people have done awful things because of leaders with &quot;good presentation skills.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I also don&#8217;t think that what Moore is doing is satanic, I think it&#8217;s pretty ridiculous to praise his presentation skills. If what we are after is distinguishing truth from error, we should wish that everyone had equally clear presentation skills, not that a film producer is able to make a movie in which there is inaccurate information he does not have to support and for which he does not have to answer.</p>
<p>And speaking to where the burden falls, I agree that it is every citizens duty to self inform themself. But what percentage of the the voters of this country can we count on to undertake such a task?  In theory, we should have no problem with anyone expressing their views however they want, but (speaking pragmatically) history has shown us that large groups of people have done awful things because of leaders with &#8220;good presentation skills.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: lyle</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/26/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lyle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;if they are undecided, this type of extended communication is the form most likely to persuade.&#039;&#039; -Kathleen Jamieson, a specialist in political communication and director of the University of Pennsylvania&#039;s Annenberg Public Policy Center.&lt;br /&gt;--------------------------------------------&lt;br /&gt;This is exactly what Dave is pointing at...I think.  That folks would look at a bunch of &quot;images&quot; &amp; then make public policy choices based on images, half-truths &amp; distortion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;if they are undecided, this type of extended communication is the form most likely to persuade.&#8221; -Kathleen Jamieson, a specialist in political communication and director of the University of Pennsylvania&#8217;s Annenberg Public Policy Center.<br />&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />This is exactly what Dave is pointing at&#8230;I think.  That folks would look at a bunch of &#8220;images&#8221; &#038; then make public policy choices based on images, half-truths &#038; distortion.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/26/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118301</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alas, I&#039;m a failure--I tried so hard to be &quot;non-political&quot; in my post and keep the focus on the emerging satirical documentary genre (which will doubtless have right-leaning copycats given Moore&#039;s success).  I&#039;m no fan of mainstream news organizations, which IMHO do have a liberal slant if not a liberal monopoly, but at least there was editorial control and the goal or ideal of objectivity and balance.  Marketing biased news and commentary to an ideologically targeted audience segment is not a step forward for journalism.  As a polity, we don&#039;t need more fragmentation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;By &quot;borking&quot; Judge Bork&#039;s nomination, the left politicized the judicial confirmation process, a development most view as regrettable but difficult to reverse.  Likewise, impeaching Clinton seems like it unleashed similar ugliness, to no particular purpose (it wasn&#039;t like he could have run again).  Seems like journalism and the media are now going the same direction, toward overt, self-conscious bias in what was before (in theory) an apolitical profession.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alas, I&#8217;m a failure&#8211;I tried so hard to be &#8220;non-political&#8221; in my post and keep the focus on the emerging satirical documentary genre (which will doubtless have right-leaning copycats given Moore&#8217;s success).  I&#8217;m no fan of mainstream news organizations, which IMHO do have a liberal slant if not a liberal monopoly, but at least there was editorial control and the goal or ideal of objectivity and balance.  Marketing biased news and commentary to an ideologically targeted audience segment is not a step forward for journalism.  As a polity, we don&#8217;t need more fragmentation.</p>
<p>By &#8220;borking&#8221; Judge Bork&#8217;s nomination, the left politicized the judicial confirmation process, a development most view as regrettable but difficult to reverse.  Likewise, impeaching Clinton seems like it unleashed similar ugliness, to no particular purpose (it wasn&#8217;t like he could have run again).  Seems like journalism and the media are now going the same direction, toward overt, self-conscious bias in what was before (in theory) an apolitical profession.</p>
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		<title>By: judy brooks</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/26/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118302</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[judy brooks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also: &lt;br /&gt;Dave---since the beginning of the film industry, films have been used as propaganda.  Note particularly the hundreds of newsreels promoting WWII.  These are all political.  And, though the majority of US citizens might agree with them (not counting, of course, the ones proudly detailing the gathering of Japanese Ameircans into the detension centers), that doesn&#039;t make them any less political.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is nothing new here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I worry more about is the mainstream news that has jumped for joy with all the news of the impending war---Ann Curry (today show) delightedly showing off the aircraft carrier, trying on uniforms, trying out goggles, etc.  What a &quot;hip hip horray&quot; cheerleading event the news media was for the Iraq war!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also: <br />Dave&#8212;since the beginning of the film industry, films have been used as propaganda.  Note particularly the hundreds of newsreels promoting WWII.  These are all political.  And, though the majority of US citizens might agree with them (not counting, of course, the ones proudly detailing the gathering of Japanese Ameircans into the detension centers), that doesn&#8217;t make them any less political.  </p>
<p>There is nothing new here.</p>
<p>What I worry more about is the mainstream news that has jumped for joy with all the news of the impending war&#8212;Ann Curry (today show) delightedly showing off the aircraft carrier, trying on uniforms, trying out goggles, etc.  What a &#8220;hip hip horray&#8221; cheerleading event the news media was for the Iraq war!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/26/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118303</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118303</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Blaine, that was an interesting answer -- twice! -- but I&#039;m not sure where you get the notion that we should wish that everyone had equal presentation skills.  Perhaps in the context of raw information transfer that would be a worthy aim, but when we&#039;re talking about what&#039;s essentially a feature-film Op-ed piece, I&#039;m not sure that&#039;s desirable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think that your 2nd paragraph comes dangerously close to suggesting that speech be limited to proven speech or factually-based speech, out of some justfication that infantilizes the citizens.  What reassures me (a little) is that Moore is not a leader, he&#039;s just some film-maker that has made a movie that&#039;s made to kick up some dirt.  Doesn&#039;t the fact that he&#039;s some private citizen venting give you at least some reassurance that the film&#039;s effects will be limited?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In reference to what history has taught us about leaders having people do awful things through their presentation skills, Moore might reply that Bush is one such leader, and that his film is meant as a check to such awful tendencies as those he sees.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blaine, that was an interesting answer &#8212; twice! &#8212; but I&#8217;m not sure where you get the notion that we should wish that everyone had equal presentation skills.  Perhaps in the context of raw information transfer that would be a worthy aim, but when we&#8217;re talking about what&#8217;s essentially a feature-film Op-ed piece, I&#8217;m not sure that&#8217;s desirable.</p>
<p>I think that your 2nd paragraph comes dangerously close to suggesting that speech be limited to proven speech or factually-based speech, out of some justfication that infantilizes the citizens.  What reassures me (a little) is that Moore is not a leader, he&#8217;s just some film-maker that has made a movie that&#8217;s made to kick up some dirt.  Doesn&#8217;t the fact that he&#8217;s some private citizen venting give you at least some reassurance that the film&#8217;s effects will be limited?</p>
<p>In reference to what history has taught us about leaders having people do awful things through their presentation skills, Moore might reply that Bush is one such leader, and that his film is meant as a check to such awful tendencies as those he sees.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/26/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118304</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118304</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[C&#039;mon lyle, even George Will rolls his eyes and makes a gagging noise when Bush pulls out the &quot;discrimination&quot; card.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C&#8217;mon lyle, even George Will rolls his eyes and makes a gagging noise when Bush pulls out the &#8220;discrimination&#8221; card.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/26/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118305</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118305</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dave,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I didn&#039;t mean to send the thread off into a discussion of the politics rather than the genre--but simply to suggest that the &quot;emerging satirical documentary genre&quot; is an unsurprising extension of/variation on/ response to trends and trendsetters in coservative media that present as factual news what in reality is closer to propaganda -- the only difference between Moore and, say, Bill O&#039;Reilly, is the polarity of the politics and the size of the screen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Measure,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&#039;t mean to rush to Moore&#039;s defense -- although it&#039;s a temptation I have to fight, since I sympathize with his politics but like to think that I prefer a less charged mode of discourse -- but the web site you cite simply demonstrates the same tactics that Moore has borrowed from the right. Take this snippet, for example, in which the author of the site uses a characterization by a Fox News Reviewer to set up a Moore-shaped straw man, then &quot;rebuts&quot; the straw man rather than Moore:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;...as one reviewer put it, &quot;it seemed that Charlton Heston and others rushed to Littleton to hold rallies and demonstrations directly after the tragedy.&quot; The portrayal is in fact false.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting (see links below), whose place and date had been fixed years in advance.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Moore never said the convention was a demonstration &quot;relating to Columbine,&quot; the FoxNews reviewer said it &quot;seemed&quot; that way in his (conservative) view. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is just one example of the kind of distortion that, sadly, seems to be the lot of much political discourse today--be it Moore&#039;s movie, Limbaugh&#039;s talk show, a book by Ann Coulter, a liberal editorial in the Village Voice, or, I would add, political campaign ads on both sides of the aisle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t mean to send the thread off into a discussion of the politics rather than the genre&#8211;but simply to suggest that the &#8220;emerging satirical documentary genre&#8221; is an unsurprising extension of/variation on/ response to trends and trendsetters in coservative media that present as factual news what in reality is closer to propaganda &#8212; the only difference between Moore and, say, Bill O&#8217;Reilly, is the polarity of the politics and the size of the screen.</p>
<p>Measure,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to rush to Moore&#8217;s defense &#8212; although it&#8217;s a temptation I have to fight, since I sympathize with his politics but like to think that I prefer a less charged mode of discourse &#8212; but the web site you cite simply demonstrates the same tactics that Moore has borrowed from the right. Take this snippet, for example, in which the author of the site uses a characterization by a Fox News Reviewer to set up a Moore-shaped straw man, then &#8220;rebuts&#8221; the straw man rather than Moore:</p>
<p><i>&#8230;as one reviewer put it, &#8220;it seemed that Charlton Heston and others rushed to Littleton to hold rallies and demonstrations directly after the tragedy.&#8221; The portrayal is in fact false.</p>
<p>Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting (see links below), whose place and date had been fixed years in advance.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Moore never said the convention was a demonstration &#8220;relating to Columbine,&#8221; the FoxNews reviewer said it &#8220;seemed&#8221; that way in his (conservative) view. </p>
<p>This is just one example of the kind of distortion that, sadly, seems to be the lot of much political discourse today&#8211;be it Moore&#8217;s movie, Limbaugh&#8217;s talk show, a book by Ann Coulter, a liberal editorial in the Village Voice, or, I would add, political campaign ads on both sides of the aisle.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/26/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118306</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118306</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dave,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think Moore would reply that he&#039;s simply using his medium to reply to propagandistic use by conservatives in other media -- I don&#039;t know that the film category deserves special consideration just because the Nazi&#039;s made movies (they used something akin to talk radio, too).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&quot;What we need is for Ken Burns to do a couple of documentaries on current &quot;political&quot; topics so the emerging genre has a positive example to follow.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That would be just as problematic -- and perhaps moreso, because while Moore already has a reputation as a controversialist, Burns has the rep as an &quot;object&quot; narrator--which means he&#039;d have even more power to convince people of his take (whatever that might be). I know a number of professional jazz musicians who were appalled by the way he constructed a history of jazz -- but because it&#039;s just music, nobody&#039;s going to call Burns &quot;satanic&quot; for tweaking the facts for the sake of narrative. Imagine, though, the propagandistic power Burns could wield if he applied those slow zooms onto still shots, those warmly-lit and quirkily-angled interview excerpts, etc. onto a political subject -- whether from a conservative or liberal angle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>I think Moore would reply that he&#8217;s simply using his medium to reply to propagandistic use by conservatives in other media &#8212; I don&#8217;t know that the film category deserves special consideration just because the Nazi&#8217;s made movies (they used something akin to talk radio, too).</p>
<p>&#8220;What we need is for Ken Burns to do a couple of documentaries on current &#8220;political&#8221; topics so the emerging genre has a positive example to follow.&#8221;</p>
<p>That would be just as problematic &#8212; and perhaps moreso, because while Moore already has a reputation as a controversialist, Burns has the rep as an &#8220;object&#8221; narrator&#8211;which means he&#8217;d have even more power to convince people of his take (whatever that might be). I know a number of professional jazz musicians who were appalled by the way he constructed a history of jazz &#8212; but because it&#8217;s just music, nobody&#8217;s going to call Burns &#8220;satanic&#8221; for tweaking the facts for the sake of narrative. Imagine, though, the propagandistic power Burns could wield if he applied those slow zooms onto still shots, those warmly-lit and quirkily-angled interview excerpts, etc. onto a political subject &#8212; whether from a conservative or liberal angle.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Caswell</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/26/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118307</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Caswell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118307</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dave, I&#039;m with you. Michael Moore seems so goofy. But I guess conspiracy is more popular/interesting than accurate information.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, I&#8217;m with you. Michael Moore seems so goofy. But I guess conspiracy is more popular/interesting than accurate information.</p>
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		<title>By: lyle</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2004/06/26/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118308</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lyle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2004/06/bowling-for-fahrenheit/#comment-118308</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dave:  I share your fear.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First, we have a genuinely great work of literary genius that has been &#039;ripped off&#039; w/o the author&#039;s permission &amp; despite his requests for his work not to be hijacked in such a manner.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Second, the &quot;nuclear war&quot; type of playing is not a great course to take.  As you pointed out, since the first &quot;Borking,&quot; there are more (pun intended) on both sides.  Since Rush...there are (more) Moore&#039;s.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As I wrote in letters to movie theater chains, why do they want to &#039;politicize&#039; what Americans watch for entertainment?  I have no desire to see picket lines outside of movie theaters when I want to go relax &amp; catch a flick.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Even less...if Limbaugh is as horrible as y&#039;all think...then watch out for the counter-attack.  In fundraising, Leftist 527s jumped the gun &amp; have been doing a &#039;great&#039; job.  The right will counter.  Moore scores a surprise coup with his latest film (with the stolen name).  The right will counter.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do we really want to return to the 1800s where Newspapers were openly partisan?  Are you prepared for TV news to become openly partisan?  Movies?  TV?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is nothing public &amp; apartisan?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave:  I share your fear.  </p>
<p>First, we have a genuinely great work of literary genius that has been &#8216;ripped off&#8217; w/o the author&#8217;s permission &#038; despite his requests for his work not to be hijacked in such a manner.  </p>
<p>Second, the &#8220;nuclear war&#8221; type of playing is not a great course to take.  As you pointed out, since the first &#8220;Borking,&#8221; there are more (pun intended) on both sides.  Since Rush&#8230;there are (more) Moore&#8217;s.  </p>
<p>As I wrote in letters to movie theater chains, why do they want to &#8216;politicize&#8217; what Americans watch for entertainment?  I have no desire to see picket lines outside of movie theaters when I want to go relax &#038; catch a flick.  </p>
<p>Even less&#8230;if Limbaugh is as horrible as y&#8217;all think&#8230;then watch out for the counter-attack.  In fundraising, Leftist 527s jumped the gun &#038; have been doing a &#8216;great&#8217; job.  The right will counter.  Moore scores a surprise coup with his latest film (with the stolen name).  The right will counter.  </p>
<p>Do we really want to return to the 1800s where Newspapers were openly partisan?  Are you prepared for TV news to become openly partisan?  Movies?  TV?  </p>
<p>Is nothing public &#038; apartisan?</p>
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