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	<title>Comments on: The Patience of Hope:  Reading and other Epiphanies</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 07:52:28 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Tom Manney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73930</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Manney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73930</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Congratulations to you and Peter. I have two -- no, three -- reactions.

1. Where can I learn more about this approach to teaching reading? I have young children and am intrigued. (And a sidebar question on this subject: Was there a specific reason why you put Peter into this program?)

2. I learn by analogies, and I find no analogy more instructive in building my relationship with God than that of myself as an earthly child to my earthly parents and as an earthly parent to my earthly children. Sometimes it has helped me see what a baby I am being. Sometimes it helps me appreciate how truly loved I am. Sometimes it has left me without excuses -- if I wouldn&#039;t let my children get away with saying that to me, then there&#039;s no way Heavenly Father is buying it when I say it to Him.

3. I wish I loved reading now as much as I did when I was young (5-9 years). For that matter, I wish I loved reading the scriptures now as much as I did when I was 18 years old. Alas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Congratulations to you and Peter. I have two &#8212; no, three &#8212; reactions.</p>
<p>1. Where can I learn more about this approach to teaching reading? I have young children and am intrigued. (And a sidebar question on this subject: Was there a specific reason why you put Peter into this program?)</p>
<p>2. I learn by analogies, and I find no analogy more instructive in building my relationship with God than that of myself as an earthly child to my earthly parents and as an earthly parent to my earthly children. Sometimes it has helped me see what a baby I am being. Sometimes it helps me appreciate how truly loved I am. Sometimes it has left me without excuses &#8212; if I wouldn&#8217;t let my children get away with saying that to me, then there&#8217;s no way Heavenly Father is buying it when I say it to Him.</p>
<p>3. I wish I loved reading now as much as I did when I was young (5-9 years). For that matter, I wish I loved reading the scriptures now as much as I did when I was 18 years old. Alas.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie in Austin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73931</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Julie in Austin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73931</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was going to bite my tongue because I realized that Kristine&#039;s post was not ultimately about teaching reading, but if Tom is going to ask, I need to say:  the approach that has worked with Peter will work, according to the stats, well with about half of kids.  The other half will not be able to read beyond a fourth grade level until they get a solid grounding in phonics.  Schools that take the above approach are taking a terrible risk.  Even if it ultimately clicks, as it did for Peter, I wonder if the good acocmplished by time spent knitting outweighs the three years of reading lost.  Not only has the skill not had those three years of development, but a certain window of innocence for the young reader has probably been lost.  Will an eight-year-old snuggle under the covers with a flashlight and devour _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_ or _Charlotte&#039;s Web_, or he is already too jaded to delight in these books?

Kristine, you know this is in no way an indictment of your parenting choices or meant to wet the blanket of your epiphany.  Waldorf does much good.

(More for those interested:  &#039;phonics&#039; became a dirty word when the American educational establishments made it a synonym for &#039;worksheets.&#039;  It need not be so.  I used a phonics-intensive approach with my then 4yo.  We did not do a single worksheet, or, in fact, any written work at all.  Before he was five, he could read on a 4th to 5th grade level.  More importantly, now 6yo, he loves to read.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was going to bite my tongue because I realized that Kristine&#8217;s post was not ultimately about teaching reading, but if Tom is going to ask, I need to say:  the approach that has worked with Peter will work, according to the stats, well with about half of kids.  The other half will not be able to read beyond a fourth grade level until they get a solid grounding in phonics.  Schools that take the above approach are taking a terrible risk.  Even if it ultimately clicks, as it did for Peter, I wonder if the good acocmplished by time spent knitting outweighs the three years of reading lost.  Not only has the skill not had those three years of development, but a certain window of innocence for the young reader has probably been lost.  Will an eight-year-old snuggle under the covers with a flashlight and devour _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_ or _Charlotte&#8217;s Web_, or he is already too jaded to delight in these books?</p>
<p>Kristine, you know this is in no way an indictment of your parenting choices or meant to wet the blanket of your epiphany.  Waldorf does much good.</p>
<p>(More for those interested:  &#8216;phonics&#8217; became a dirty word when the American educational establishments made it a synonym for &#8216;worksheets.&#8217;  It need not be so.  I used a phonics-intensive approach with my then 4yo.  We did not do a single worksheet, or, in fact, any written work at all.  Before he was five, he could read on a 4th to 5th grade level.  More importantly, now 6yo, he loves to read.)</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73932</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73932</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Julie, I was thinking of how crazy this would make you when I wrote it :).  I think you&#039;re largely right, and that&#039;s part of why it was hard and scary for me to wait.  In fact, Peter&#039;s teacher has done some phonics with the class this year (2nd grade), and I think most Waldorf teachers are starting to recognize the benefits of a combined whole language/phonics approach.  What remains different is the timing, and there I think there&#039;s pretty good evidence to suggest that it really does go faster when you teach older kids--and in much of the world (Germany and Sweden, to name a couple of highly developed examples) 7 is regarded as a perfectly fine age to start teaching reading.  Americans seem in a huge hurry to me, with some unfortunate results mixed in with the good ones.  I learned to read fairly early, and I think I lost a lot--it would have been good for me to be forced to play outside, to work on my limping social skills, to have gotten good at throwing a ball and climbing trees.  And &quot;jaded&quot; is less of a problem with kids who have been not watching TV or playing video games and have spent lots of first grade listening to fairy tales.  Peter&#039;s the &quot;youngest&quot; almost-8-year-old I know in lots of ways, and I am totally confident that he is not spoiled for Charlie &amp; the Chocolate Factory yet.

If I&#039;d had a different child, I might very well have done things much the way you&#039;re doing, Julie--in fact, I think the curriculum you use is *exactly* what I would have chosen if I&#039;d homeschooled as I had always intended.  But if I&#039;d tried a phonics-intensive approach (or really *any* approach designed to explicitly teach him *anything*) with Peter, I&#039;d have had open rebellion and hatred of reading on my hands.  Part of what is so interesting about the process to me is how unusual it is for me to be not pushing, not trying to control, not as worried a]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie, I was thinking of how crazy this would make you when I wrote it :).  I think you&#8217;re largely right, and that&#8217;s part of why it was hard and scary for me to wait.  In fact, Peter&#8217;s teacher has done some phonics with the class this year (2nd grade), and I think most Waldorf teachers are starting to recognize the benefits of a combined whole language/phonics approach.  What remains different is the timing, and there I think there&#8217;s pretty good evidence to suggest that it really does go faster when you teach older kids&#8211;and in much of the world (Germany and Sweden, to name a couple of highly developed examples) 7 is regarded as a perfectly fine age to start teaching reading.  Americans seem in a huge hurry to me, with some unfortunate results mixed in with the good ones.  I learned to read fairly early, and I think I lost a lot&#8211;it would have been good for me to be forced to play outside, to work on my limping social skills, to have gotten good at throwing a ball and climbing trees.  And &#8220;jaded&#8221; is less of a problem with kids who have been not watching TV or playing video games and have spent lots of first grade listening to fairy tales.  Peter&#8217;s the &#8220;youngest&#8221; almost-8-year-old I know in lots of ways, and I am totally confident that he is not spoiled for Charlie &#038; the Chocolate Factory yet.</p>
<p>If I&#8217;d had a different child, I might very well have done things much the way you&#8217;re doing, Julie&#8211;in fact, I think the curriculum you use is *exactly* what I would have chosen if I&#8217;d homeschooled as I had always intended.  But if I&#8217;d tried a phonics-intensive approach (or really *any* approach designed to explicitly teach him *anything*) with Peter, I&#8217;d have had open rebellion and hatred of reading on my hands.  Part of what is so interesting about the process to me is how unusual it is for me to be not pushing, not trying to control, not as worried a</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73933</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I *swear* I&#039;m only hitting &quot;post&quot; once!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I *swear* I&#8217;m only hitting &#8220;post&#8221; once!!</p>
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		<title>By: Julie in Austin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73934</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Julie in Austin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73934</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kristine--

Amen to that.  To be fair, I suppose that I *did* combine phonics and whole language, to the extent that every phonics lesson was followed by Simon reading a &#039;real&#039; book from the library to me.

The timing issue is interesting.  I think that in a school setting, the &#039;better late than early&#039; mantra is probably the best route to take in order not to harm kids on the left side of the bell curve.  Of course, homeschooling, the issues are different.

The &#039;hurry&#039; issue is terrible.  (If I see one more electronic toy designed to teach one year olds the letters of the alphabet, I&#039;ll scream.)

You wrote, &quot;I learned to read fairly early, and I think I lost a lot--it would have been good for me to be forced to play outside, to work on my limping social skills, to have gotten good at throwing a ball and climbing trees.&quot;  These need not be mutually exclusive.  Everything in moderation.

Someone needs to post about &#039;jading.&#039;  Case:  I am teaching a coop class of six year old homeschooled Mormon kids (can you think of a more sheltered group?).  As an introductory activity, I ask them their names and to tell what their favorite toy is.  Every boy (except mine) says Nintendo or Gamecube or Gameboy.  sigh]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kristine&#8211;</p>
<p>Amen to that.  To be fair, I suppose that I *did* combine phonics and whole language, to the extent that every phonics lesson was followed by Simon reading a &#8216;real&#8217; book from the library to me.</p>
<p>The timing issue is interesting.  I think that in a school setting, the &#8216;better late than early&#8217; mantra is probably the best route to take in order not to harm kids on the left side of the bell curve.  Of course, homeschooling, the issues are different.</p>
<p>The &#8216;hurry&#8217; issue is terrible.  (If I see one more electronic toy designed to teach one year olds the letters of the alphabet, I&#8217;ll scream.)</p>
<p>You wrote, &#8220;I learned to read fairly early, and I think I lost a lot&#8211;it would have been good for me to be forced to play outside, to work on my limping social skills, to have gotten good at throwing a ball and climbing trees.&#8221;  These need not be mutually exclusive.  Everything in moderation.</p>
<p>Someone needs to post about &#8216;jading.&#8217;  Case:  I am teaching a coop class of six year old homeschooled Mormon kids (can you think of a more sheltered group?).  As an introductory activity, I ask them their names and to tell what their favorite toy is.  Every boy (except mine) says Nintendo or Gamecube or Gameboy.  sigh</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73935</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clark Goble]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73935</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I learned to read fairly early, and I think I lost a lot--it would have been good for me to be forced to play outside, to work on my limping social skills, to have gotten good at throwing a ball and climbing trees.&quot;

Hopefully it&#039;s not an either/or situation.  I managed to read &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; play outside, for instance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I learned to read fairly early, and I think I lost a lot&#8211;it would have been good for me to be forced to play outside, to work on my limping social skills, to have gotten good at throwing a ball and climbing trees.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hopefully it&#8217;s not an either/or situation.  I managed to read <i>and</i> play outside, for instance.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73936</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course it&#039;s not either/or, and it wasn&#039;t as though my parents or teachers made me stay inside to practice reading. It was just that I&#039;m temperamentally inclined to live in my head, not in my body, and reading early made my head that much more interesting and my body that much less.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it&#8217;s not either/or, and it wasn&#8217;t as though my parents or teachers made me stay inside to practice reading. It was just that I&#8217;m temperamentally inclined to live in my head, not in my body, and reading early made my head that much more interesting and my body that much less.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73937</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lisa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73937</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is so interesting.  And you all know so much about this stuff.  I have no idea what a whaldof is, except maybe a hotel somewhere?

I didn&#039;t learn to read until much later.  I struggled with reading and was always in the dumb groups at school.  It was a rural school and I haven&#039;t the faintest idea what type of system they used.  Then I showed up to fourth grade (what is that 9? 10?) and out of the blue I could read . . . and write.  I remember it vividly. It felt like a flash from outerspace.

And now I have a four year old who is teaching herself to read and write and I haven&#039;t done a thing to encourage or discourage it. She informed me a few days ago that she wanted to practice writing her letters, (which she had known for years already).  So I printed out some practice sheets from someplace on the web and now she can write everyone in the family&#039;s name.  And I don&#039;t help her or teach her at all.  In fact she get angry with me (to quote her: &quot;Mom you&#039;re making me angry.  I&#039;ll do it myself.&quot;)if I make any suggestions as to pencil holding technique or letter formation or whatever you call it.  So I leave her alone.

And I&#039;m thinking I don&#039;t know what to do with this child, I couldn&#039;t read until I was more than twice her age.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is so interesting.  And you all know so much about this stuff.  I have no idea what a whaldof is, except maybe a hotel somewhere?</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t learn to read until much later.  I struggled with reading and was always in the dumb groups at school.  It was a rural school and I haven&#8217;t the faintest idea what type of system they used.  Then I showed up to fourth grade (what is that 9? 10?) and out of the blue I could read . . . and write.  I remember it vividly. It felt like a flash from outerspace.</p>
<p>And now I have a four year old who is teaching herself to read and write and I haven&#8217;t done a thing to encourage or discourage it. She informed me a few days ago that she wanted to practice writing her letters, (which she had known for years already).  So I printed out some practice sheets from someplace on the web and now she can write everyone in the family&#8217;s name.  And I don&#8217;t help her or teach her at all.  In fact she get angry with me (to quote her: &#8220;Mom you&#8217;re making me angry.  I&#8217;ll do it myself.&#8221;)if I make any suggestions as to pencil holding technique or letter formation or whatever you call it.  So I leave her alone.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m thinking I don&#8217;t know what to do with this child, I couldn&#8217;t read until I was more than twice her age.</p>
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		<title>By: Kris W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73938</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kris W.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73938</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I might disagree with your description of Waldorf Education&#039;s approach to reading as &quot;laissez faire&quot; meaning an abstention from interference.  I find it difficult to explain this approach to teaching reading and it often ends up being described as more &quot;laid back&quot;.  Instead I have found reading in a Waldorf school to be more gentle and careful in laying the foundation for reading than most &quot;techniques&quot;.  I think the acknowledgement of cultivating the inner activity of true reading and &quot;living into the story&quot; vs. decoding words and developing comprehension skills is a better approach for many children, especially boys.  When the time came, both of my children&#039;s teachers used a mix of phonics and whole language with good results. Similarly, while knitting is a wonderful artistic activity it also helps to develop mobility and dexterity of fine motor muscles which are now being linked to brain development which strengthens the physical foundation for thinking that you have alluded to.

That being said, I think that we need to be careful about not placing all &quot;Waldorf&quot; kids into the same round peg hole and be watchful to support early readers as well as kids who may be encountering serious reading difficulties.  I found &quot;waiting&quot; for my first son to read to be be a &quot;white knuckle&quot; experience because I love reading so much and wanted to get right in there and teach him how to &quot;be like me&quot;.  It was interesting to watch him become his own reader -- and I was delighted as he moved quickly into reading the Little House series.  He is now almost 11 and is currently reading &quot;James and the Giant Peach&quot; by the light of his closet and he was right in the thick of things last night as I was reading &quot;The Adventures of Reddy Fox&quot; to some of his younger siblings.  I am of the persuasion that you will find more &quot;jadedness&quot; in the 6 year old who has watched the Harry Potter or Spiderman movies or in the 7 year old who is proficient at reading the Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen series of books.

Anyways, this is long enough  ... thanks for blogging on this topic.  Although there are limited opportunities for it, I enjoy the discussion that rises from the intersection of Waldorf Education and Mormonism :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I might disagree with your description of Waldorf Education&#8217;s approach to reading as &#8220;laissez faire&#8221; meaning an abstention from interference.  I find it difficult to explain this approach to teaching reading and it often ends up being described as more &#8220;laid back&#8221;.  Instead I have found reading in a Waldorf school to be more gentle and careful in laying the foundation for reading than most &#8220;techniques&#8221;.  I think the acknowledgement of cultivating the inner activity of true reading and &#8220;living into the story&#8221; vs. decoding words and developing comprehension skills is a better approach for many children, especially boys.  When the time came, both of my children&#8217;s teachers used a mix of phonics and whole language with good results. Similarly, while knitting is a wonderful artistic activity it also helps to develop mobility and dexterity of fine motor muscles which are now being linked to brain development which strengthens the physical foundation for thinking that you have alluded to.</p>
<p>That being said, I think that we need to be careful about not placing all &#8220;Waldorf&#8221; kids into the same round peg hole and be watchful to support early readers as well as kids who may be encountering serious reading difficulties.  I found &#8220;waiting&#8221; for my first son to read to be be a &#8220;white knuckle&#8221; experience because I love reading so much and wanted to get right in there and teach him how to &#8220;be like me&#8221;.  It was interesting to watch him become his own reader &#8212; and I was delighted as he moved quickly into reading the Little House series.  He is now almost 11 and is currently reading &#8220;James and the Giant Peach&#8221; by the light of his closet and he was right in the thick of things last night as I was reading &#8220;The Adventures of Reddy Fox&#8221; to some of his younger siblings.  I am of the persuasion that you will find more &#8220;jadedness&#8221; in the 6 year old who has watched the Harry Potter or Spiderman movies or in the 7 year old who is proficient at reading the Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen series of books.</p>
<p>Anyways, this is long enough  &#8230; thanks for blogging on this topic.  Although there are limited opportunities for it, I enjoy the discussion that rises from the intersection of Waldorf Education and Mormonism :)</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/01/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73939</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/01/the-patience-of-hope-reading-and-other-epiphanies/#comment-73939</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Although there are limited opportunities for it, I enjoy the discussion that rises from the intersection of Waldorf Education and Mormonism&quot;

Yes, the occasions are limited, since as far as I know the universe of Mormon-Waldorf moms consists entirely of people named Kristine with a K :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Although there are limited opportunities for it, I enjoy the discussion that rises from the intersection of Waldorf Education and Mormonism&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, the occasions are limited, since as far as I know the universe of Mormon-Waldorf moms consists entirely of people named Kristine with a K :)</p>
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