Comments on: (Lack of) Patriotism in the International Church

By: RoastedTomatoes

RoastedTomatoes — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

In my experience, Latin American LDS congregations are equally reluctant to engage in patriotic displays. No Latin American national anthem or other patriotic song is to be found in the Spanish-language hymnal, so it’s perhaps not a surprise that songs aren’t sung. But many wards seem to have an ongoing debate about the extent to which they should support the USA or their own home countries.

My favorite instance of this was a fast and testimony meeting in Venezuela in 2002, at the height of the social conflict over president Hugo Chavez. Several members argued that the church liked and supported Chavez. The evidence was that they’d been to the Caracas temple, and the temple session always included a prayer for Chavez. So the church supported him.

Other members argued that the church opposed Chavez, who had already established a clearly conflictual relationship with the USA. Since the church was restored in the US, church headquarters is in the US, and Zion was to be built within the US, it followed that the USA was God’s chosen country, and Venezuelans should only support pro-USA politicians. One man actually said that Chavez was the best president for Venezuelans ever, but that Mormons couldn’t support him because Mormons’ first political allegiance was to the USA.

So the point of this rather lengthy comment is to provide parallel evidence for your argument, Ronin. I think you’re probably right about why you didn’t see patriotism at your ward… Probably the same reason I don’t see it at mine.

By: Eric Russell

Eric Russell — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I side with #4. The status quo of LDS church services is deeply rooted in our minds. We are used to certain things being certain ways, and any variation of that is resisted. I think the only reason that the current level of patriotism in American LDS churches is present is because of tradition. If those songs were not in the hymnbook, and it were not part of our tradition to sing them, I think you would find strong resistance to singing patriotic songs in church, even among the most patriotic.

By: Weezer1223

Weezer1223 — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

In Ensenada, the Stake has a HUGE Mexican Independence Day Celebration. Kids dress up like like soldiers in the Mexican war of independence, there’s a ton of food and dancing. So, at least there they were pretty big into celebrating partriotic holidays.

By: Mark B.

Mark B. — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

The most schizophrenic singing in an LDS worship service I ever encountered was in early July in Cardston, Alberta, my wife’s hometown.

The service began with our singing “America the Beautiful”, we sang “The Star Spangled Banner” at halftime, and closed with “O Canada.” It’s convenient that Canada Day falls so close to Independence Day, although that just sharpens the distinction between what our patriotic forbears did and the Canucks did not.

September 11 got (and continues to get, on anniversaries) mention in my ward here, but the nearness of our meetinghouse in Brooklyn to the WTC site perhaps explains that.

On the other hand, I usually choose a Spanish-language branch to attend on the Sunday nearest the 4th of July so I can avoid the singing of the patriotic songs. (Maybe I’d feel different about this, Ronan, if every ballgame did not include both The Star Spangled Banner, and, since 9/11, God Blees America, when we ought to be singing only about “peanuts and cracker-jack.”

By: EricG

EricG — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

One thing that I have long found interesting is how it seems to me that General Conference seems to happen in a vacuum or bubble, depending on which image you want to use. There is almost never any reference to what is going on in the world, and 99 percent of the talks could have been given at any other General Conference. The main exception has been a few remarks from President Hinckley about terrorism/war and the death of Pope John Paul II.

To get back to the topic at hand, I admit I am somewhat uneasy about patriotic displays, even the singing of the national anthem (although I do it, if you can call what I do singing). In this country (the USA), patriotism has partly coopted by one political party, and all too often patriotism is equated with support of President Bush (whose leadership, I believe, is a disaster). I do support and love my country, but that’s not the same thing as supporting what it does, but many people around here don’t seem to know the difference. And I’m not opposed to praying for our soldiers, but I also think we should be praying for the peacemakers in our world. For that matter, we should be praying for the terrorists and insurgents too. They need God’s blessings more than we do.

By: Hellmut

Hellmut — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Can it have something to do with the fact that every Mormon is expected to become half an American?

By: Trendy

Trendy — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Some of us love our country AND support most of what it does. I spent a lot of my time outside the US including the Near East and from my perspective the US is doing more good in the world than any other country Iâ€™m aware of.

The more time I spend traveling outside the US the more I realize just how great the US government is (comparatively speaking).

By: Keith

Keith — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

When I converted to the church I realized the one sacrafice that would be very difficult. I was raised a United Methodist in Oklahoma (Bible Belt). The only good thing about that church was the music…the 200+ member choir, orchestra, hand bells, etc…and every week! I become LDS and immediately have to tolerate the once a quarter heardache after being put through another attempt from the ward choir.

Where is the rule that only songs from the hymnal are allowed in meetings. Doesn’t it say somewhere that ‘good’ or ‘appropriate’ music is also permissable? I understand tradition, but some changes might just be necessary. Perhaps it is left up to the Bishops, although I distinctly remember hearing something about Elder Packer taking “Come Thou Fount…” out of the hymnal, which would suggest that song choice is decided much higher up the eclesiastical totem pole.

I attended a Dallas ward just prior to leaving for the mission and was surprised to hear several songs sung that were not in the hymnal. It was a nice change, but only happened a couple of times.

Now, when I was in downtown LA serving a mission, I realized that there are various ethnic ways to sing a LDS hymn, thus making the experience different, unique, and without a doubt memorable, but that is perhaps another subject all together.

By: J. Stapley

J. Stapley — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I realize that the UK is very much different than the continent; however, I have had several European friends, visit during the summers. In Missouri, every other house has a flag in July. My friends, but especially the French, were appalled at such nationalistic fervor. For the continent, at least, I do believe that there is a conscientious movement to suppress nationalistic behaviors. Like I said, I have very little experience with the Brits, but from the news I read, it is not uncommon to sport the Union Jack. So maybe it is simply an affair with monotone?

By: Peter

Peter — Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I recall a Flanders & Swann skit that discusses how other countries have great nationalistic songs, but what does England have . . . “Jerusalem.” That being said, I’ll sing an inspiring version of that hymn to myself this Sunday in honor of a great nation.

Our ward in NYC had a fireside a few months after 9/11, where a wider variety of music could be shared (than a Sacrament meeting) that was appropriate to the mourning and loss we felt. Maybe you could suggest something similar for your congregation?

“I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England’s green and pleasant land.”