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	<title>Comments on: Libertarianism, Tehran and SLC</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61065</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/08/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61065</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anyone...anyone...Bueller?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone&#8230;anyone&#8230;Bueller?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: a random John</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61066</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[a random John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/08/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61066</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[J.,

I&#039;m really tempted to turn this into yet another discussion of &quot;The BYU Honor Code as Satan&#039;s Plan&quot; but I don&#039;t have the heart to do it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J.,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m really tempted to turn this into yet another discussion of &#8220;The BYU Honor Code as Satan&#8217;s Plan&#8221; but I don&#8217;t have the heart to do it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Elisabeth</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61067</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Elisabeth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/08/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61067</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ll take a stab at this.  I think, in Zion, bars, pornography, tank tops, premarital sex, and Nabokov may not be &quot;outlawed&quot; per se, but the people in Zion will have no need or desire for these things, so they probably won&#039;t be available.

In the real world, we outlaw pornography because people haven&#039;t yet developed the spiritual knowledge that pornography is destructive to one&#039;s soul (or if they have realized this, they are still unable to resist it).

I&#039;m not sure there is room for a Mormon Libertarianism in the current Mormon culture.  But I&#039;m hopeful as we evolve as a society we&#039;ll spend less time making sure everyone else is following the rules, and more time developing our own spirituality that will enable us to live Christ like lives no matter whether we live in SLC or Tehran.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll take a stab at this.  I think, in Zion, bars, pornography, tank tops, premarital sex, and Nabokov may not be &#8220;outlawed&#8221; per se, but the people in Zion will have no need or desire for these things, so they probably won&#8217;t be available.</p>
<p>In the real world, we outlaw pornography because people haven&#8217;t yet developed the spiritual knowledge that pornography is destructive to one&#8217;s soul (or if they have realized this, they are still unable to resist it).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure there is room for a Mormon Libertarianism in the current Mormon culture.  But I&#8217;m hopeful as we evolve as a society we&#8217;ll spend less time making sure everyone else is following the rules, and more time developing our own spirituality that will enable us to live Christ like lives no matter whether we live in SLC or Tehran.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61068</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/08/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61068</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sorry; I can&#039;t bring myself to respond to a post where &quot;perspicuity&quot; and &quot;evanescent&quot; are used in consecutive sentences...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry; I can&#8217;t bring myself to respond to a post where &#8220;perspicuity&#8221; and &#8220;evanescent&#8221; are used in consecutive sentences&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61069</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/08/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61069</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think people in Zion will need Nabokov as much as anywhere else.  Pale Fire, for instance, is one of the greatest works of literature from the past century.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think people in Zion will need Nabokov as much as anywhere else.  Pale Fire, for instance, is one of the greatest works of literature from the past century.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: J. Max Wilson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61070</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Max Wilson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/08/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61070</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Difficult questions J.

I am a conservative, but I also have libertarian sympathies.  I think that we have to find a balance.  Despite my conservatism, and advocation of strong moral laws, I am also a big fan of the John Milton&#039;s essay &lt;i&gt;Areopagitica&lt;/i&gt;.

My favorite quote: &lt;blockquote&gt;If every action, which is good or evil in man at ripe years, were to be under pittance and prescription and Compulsion, what were virtue but a name, what praise could be then due to well-doing, what gramercy to be sober, just, or continent? Many there be that complain of divine Providence for suffering Adam to transgress; foolish tongues! When God gave him reason, he gave him freedom to choose, for reason is but choosing; he had been else a mere artificial Adam, such an Adam as he is in the motions. We ourselves esteem not of that obedience, or love, or gift, which is of force: God therefore left him free, set before him a provoking object, ever almost in his eyes; herein consisted his merit, herein the right of his reward, the praise of his abstinence. Wherefore did he create passions within us, pleasures round about us, but that these rightly tempered are the very ingredients of virtue?

They are not skillful considerers of human things, who imagine to remove sin by removing the matter of sin. . .Though ye take from a covetous man all his treasure, he has yet one jewel left, ye cannot bereave him of his covetousness. Banish all objects of lust, shut up all youth into the severest discipline that can be exercised in any hermitage, ye cannot make them chaste, that came not hither so; such great care and wisdom is required to the right managing of this point. Suppose we could expel sin by this means; look how much we thus expel of sin, so much we expel of virtue: for the matter of them both is the same; remove that, and ye remove them both alike.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree with Milton that &quot;great care and wisdom is required to the right managing of this point.&quot;

I personally draw the line with two criteria:

1. Any addictive component.
2. Negative effect on the stability of the traditional family.

Homosexuality, Prostitution, Alcohol, Drugs, Pornography, Drugs, Adultery, all meet at least one of these criteria--most of them meet both.

If the choice is between the tyranny of addiction and widespread societal chaos that results from family disintegration and a less libertarian government, I will choose the government.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Difficult questions J.</p>
<p>I am a conservative, but I also have libertarian sympathies.  I think that we have to find a balance.  Despite my conservatism, and advocation of strong moral laws, I am also a big fan of the John Milton&#8217;s essay <i>Areopagitica</i>.</p>
<p>My favorite quote:<br />
<blockquote>If every action, which is good or evil in man at ripe years, were to be under pittance and prescription and Compulsion, what were virtue but a name, what praise could be then due to well-doing, what gramercy to be sober, just, or continent? Many there be that complain of divine Providence for suffering Adam to transgress; foolish tongues! When God gave him reason, he gave him freedom to choose, for reason is but choosing; he had been else a mere artificial Adam, such an Adam as he is in the motions. We ourselves esteem not of that obedience, or love, or gift, which is of force: God therefore left him free, set before him a provoking object, ever almost in his eyes; herein consisted his merit, herein the right of his reward, the praise of his abstinence. Wherefore did he create passions within us, pleasures round about us, but that these rightly tempered are the very ingredients of virtue?</p>
<p>They are not skillful considerers of human things, who imagine to remove sin by removing the matter of sin. . .Though ye take from a covetous man all his treasure, he has yet one jewel left, ye cannot bereave him of his covetousness. Banish all objects of lust, shut up all youth into the severest discipline that can be exercised in any hermitage, ye cannot make them chaste, that came not hither so; such great care and wisdom is required to the right managing of this point. Suppose we could expel sin by this means; look how much we thus expel of sin, so much we expel of virtue: for the matter of them both is the same; remove that, and ye remove them both alike.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree with Milton that &#8220;great care and wisdom is required to the right managing of this point.&#8221;</p>
<p>I personally draw the line with two criteria:</p>
<p>1. Any addictive component.<br />
2. Negative effect on the stability of the traditional family.</p>
<p>Homosexuality, Prostitution, Alcohol, Drugs, Pornography, Drugs, Adultery, all meet at least one of these criteria&#8211;most of them meet both.</p>
<p>If the choice is between the tyranny of addiction and widespread societal chaos that results from family disintegration and a less libertarian government, I will choose the government.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lyle stamps</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61071</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lyle stamps]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/08/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61071</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That depends.  If Zion has perfect knowledge, or its rulers anything close to that, then it will be easy to show whether there are externalities imposed upon others by the so-called victimless vices that you wonder about.  It seems that most of the arguments about whether X should be legal or not are decided based upon whether there is a scientifically provable externalities imposed upon another.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That depends.  If Zion has perfect knowledge, or its rulers anything close to that, then it will be easy to show whether there are externalities imposed upon others by the so-called victimless vices that you wonder about.  It seems that most of the arguments about whether X should be legal or not are decided based upon whether there is a scientifically provable externalities imposed upon another.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61072</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[annegb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/08/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61072</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[perspecuity?  I have a five pound dictionary which doesn&#039;t have this word in it.  I hate when people gratuitously use big words when a simpler word would do.  Although, in this case, since I don&#039;t know what it means, maybe there is no other word.

J. Stapley, I truly do not know the answer or have an opinion on this, I truly want to know-- Iran sounds terrible, then do you think we should invade them?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>perspecuity?  I have a five pound dictionary which doesn&#8217;t have this word in it.  I hate when people gratuitously use big words when a simpler word would do.  Although, in this case, since I don&#8217;t know what it means, maybe there is no other word.</p>
<p>J. Stapley, I truly do not know the answer or have an opinion on this, I truly want to know&#8211; Iran sounds terrible, then do you think we should invade them?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61073</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/08/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Annegb -- Perspicuity means clarity.

Also, NO WAY should we invade Iran.  NOOOOOO!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Annegb &#8212; Perspicuity means clarity.</p>
<p>Also, NO WAY should we invade Iran.  NOOOOOO!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rusty</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/08/11/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61074</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rusty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/08/libertarianism-tehran-and-slc/#comment-61074</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[LOL!!! That&#039;s the funniest thing I&#039;ve seen all day, &quot;Perspicuity means clarity.&quot; So clear that nobody understands.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL!!! That&#8217;s the funniest thing I&#8217;ve seen all day, &#8220;Perspicuity means clarity.&#8221; So clear that nobody understands.</p>
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