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	<title>Comments on: Is Exaltation a Gift?</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Aaron Shafovaloff</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121769</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Shafovaloff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/11/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121769</guid>
		<description>I was converted to Christ by the Holy Spirit showing me Romans 4:4-8:

&quot;Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: â€œBlessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.â€

Very relevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was converted to Christ by the Holy Spirit showing me Romans 4:4-8:</p>
<p>&#8220;Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: â€œBlessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,<br />
and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.â€</p>
<p>Very relevant.</p>
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		<title>By: John C.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121741</link>
		<dc:creator>John C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/11/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121741</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m probably going to have to go with the cryptic definition.  If we really are less than the dust of the earth, how can becoming a God be anything other than a gift?  The relative value of our contribution to the equation is dwarfed by what we receive in return.  If I gave you $5 and you gave me a fully-functional, top-of-the-line aircraft carrier in return, would someone argue that I had earned the carrier?  Outside of this, God really only asks us to do one thing (his will).  All other commandment issues are side effects of the commitment to do this one thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m probably going to have to go with the cryptic definition.  If we really are less than the dust of the earth, how can becoming a God be anything other than a gift?  The relative value of our contribution to the equation is dwarfed by what we receive in return.  If I gave you $5 and you gave me a fully-functional, top-of-the-line aircraft carrier in return, would someone argue that I had earned the carrier?  Outside of this, God really only asks us to do one thing (his will).  All other commandment issues are side effects of the commitment to do this one thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121742</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/11/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121742</guid>
		<description>Bob, I will refrain from quoting from the Parable of the Bicycle here (Book of Robinson, Chapter 4: verses 7-19).

My son is begging me for a Clone Ship for Christmas. I tell him he has to be a good boy, and maybe Santa will bring him one. If he&#039;s good, and I give him the gift, is it any less of a gift?

(Of course, this breaks down because I&#039;ll probably buy it him whether he&#039;s &quot;good&quot; or not--so I can play with it.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, I will refrain from quoting from the Parable of the Bicycle here (Book of Robinson, Chapter 4: verses 7-19).</p>
<p>My son is begging me for a Clone Ship for Christmas. I tell him he has to be a good boy, and maybe Santa will bring him one. If he&#8217;s good, and I give him the gift, is it any less of a gift?</p>
<p>(Of course, this breaks down because I&#8217;ll probably buy it him whether he&#8217;s &#8220;good&#8221; or not&#8211;so I can play with it.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121743</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>D&amp;C 14:7

And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

I think that the Lord has said that it&#039;s a gift, and we should get over thinking that we&#039;ve done anything to deserve it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D&#038;C 14:7</p>
<p>And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.</p>
<p>I think that the Lord has said that it&#8217;s a gift, and we should get over thinking that we&#8217;ve done anything to deserve it.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve S</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121744</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/11/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121744</guid>
		<description>I agree that he used the right word.

Doctrine and Covenants 6:13: If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that he used the right word.</p>
<p>Doctrine and Covenants 6:13: If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.</p>
<p>Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Jesus our Lord.</p>
<p>Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.</p>
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		<title>By: Last Lemming</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121745</link>
		<dc:creator>Last Lemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/11/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121745</guid>
		<description>This is another case where I think it is useful to disentangle salvation from exaltation.

Let me define salvation for this discussion as &quot;forgiveness of our sins without having to pay for them ourselves&quot; (or TTTF #2).  Our obedience and repentance are necessary conditions for salvation but not sufficient.  Only the atonement makes our works of any consequence. Thus, I would not characterize salvation per se as a gift, but rather the atonement is the gift that makes salvation possible.  When people talk of salvation as a gift, they are really talking about the atonement.

In that same vein, I would not characterize exaltation per se as a gift either.  The atonement still counts as a gift here, because we cannot begin to be exalted unless we have been saved.  But once we have been saved is their yet another gift that enables us to be exalted?  Or can we earn it from that point on?
My working theory is that the personal reign of the Savior on earth during the millenium is the gift that will enable us to be exalted.  Without it, I suspect that our efforts to build Zion and achieve exaltation would come to naught.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is another case where I think it is useful to disentangle salvation from exaltation.</p>
<p>Let me define salvation for this discussion as &#8220;forgiveness of our sins without having to pay for them ourselves&#8221; (or TTTF #2).  Our obedience and repentance are necessary conditions for salvation but not sufficient.  Only the atonement makes our works of any consequence. Thus, I would not characterize salvation per se as a gift, but rather the atonement is the gift that makes salvation possible.  When people talk of salvation as a gift, they are really talking about the atonement.</p>
<p>In that same vein, I would not characterize exaltation per se as a gift either.  The atonement still counts as a gift here, because we cannot begin to be exalted unless we have been saved.  But once we have been saved is their yet another gift that enables us to be exalted?  Or can we earn it from that point on?<br />
My working theory is that the personal reign of the Savior on earth during the millenium is the gift that will enable us to be exalted.  Without it, I suspect that our efforts to build Zion and achieve exaltation would come to naught.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121746</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/11/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121746</guid>
		<description>Maybe the problem doesn&#039;t lie with the concept of &quot;gift&quot; as much as with the current state of Mormon rhetoric, which, as Laurie is fond of pointing out, tends strongly in the direction of &quot;Jesus loves you ---- but only if you do your home/visiting teaching, stay out of debt, stock up on dried food, qualify for a temple recommend, go to the temple regularly, do your genealogy, stay at home (if you&#039;re female), work hard (if you&#039;re a male), attend every possible meeting, hold Family Home Evening each and every week, etc etc etc.&quot;  From that perspective, the number of hoops one is expected to jump through to get to the &quot;gift&quot; seems completely out of line with the gift concept.

Seems to me we&#039;ve struggled so much to avoid the concept of  grace in the church, that we tend to make the gifts of God all conditional and &quot;exalt&quot; our capacity for saving ourselves, even though (as other commenters have noted) we ultimately rely on the grace of God exactly as much as any born-again evangelical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the problem doesn&#8217;t lie with the concept of &#8220;gift&#8221; as much as with the current state of Mormon rhetoric, which, as Laurie is fond of pointing out, tends strongly in the direction of &#8220;Jesus loves you &#8212;- but only if you do your home/visiting teaching, stay out of debt, stock up on dried food, qualify for a temple recommend, go to the temple regularly, do your genealogy, stay at home (if you&#8217;re female), work hard (if you&#8217;re a male), attend every possible meeting, hold Family Home Evening each and every week, etc etc etc.&#8221;  From that perspective, the number of hoops one is expected to jump through to get to the &#8220;gift&#8221; seems completely out of line with the gift concept.</p>
<p>Seems to me we&#8217;ve struggled so much to avoid the concept of  grace in the church, that we tend to make the gifts of God all conditional and &#8220;exalt&#8221; our capacity for saving ourselves, even though (as other commenters have noted) we ultimately rely on the grace of God exactly as much as any born-again evangelical.</p>
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		<title>By: Tara</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121747</link>
		<dc:creator>Tara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m not sure what kind of gift it can be if it&#039;s only available to people who were able to flirt, attract the opposite sex and marry in the temple (and who are straight). Some people can&#039;t help being gay, and some can&#039;t help being single. Sounds more like an earned status to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure what kind of gift it can be if it&#8217;s only available to people who were able to flirt, attract the opposite sex and marry in the temple (and who are straight). Some people can&#8217;t help being gay, and some can&#8217;t help being single. Sounds more like an earned status to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121748</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/11/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121748</guid>
		<description>Most of the comments have focused on the idea that we all fall short of earning exaltation outright, but that we may get it nevertheless.  I wonder if it might be worth looking at from the other side of things.  Is something a gift if the &quot;giver&quot; is obligated to give it?  And is exaltation something that God is obligated to give us after we&#039;ve met some sort of criterion?  Maybe the answer to those questions is &quot;No&quot;, but they seem like they might be worth asking.

There&#039;s a part of me that finds the more humanistic side of Mormon thought appealing. The idea that my exaltation is at least partly under my control is a beautiful Mormon idea at some level.  Maybe it is also a somewhat heretical idea, but it is beautiful to me nonetheless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the comments have focused on the idea that we all fall short of earning exaltation outright, but that we may get it nevertheless.  I wonder if it might be worth looking at from the other side of things.  Is something a gift if the &#8220;giver&#8221; is obligated to give it?  And is exaltation something that God is obligated to give us after we&#8217;ve met some sort of criterion?  Maybe the answer to those questions is &#8220;No&#8221;, but they seem like they might be worth asking.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a part of me that finds the more humanistic side of Mormon thought appealing. The idea that my exaltation is at least partly under my control is a beautiful Mormon idea at some level.  Maybe it is also a somewhat heretical idea, but it is beautiful to me nonetheless.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/11/09/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121749</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://centaur.nocdirect.com/~jbycommo/2005/11/is-exaltation-a-gift/#comment-121749</guid>
		<description>RE: potential greater gifts, I believe agency is as eternal as we are and I think the atonement and exaltation are confounded.

...but to your thesis, I we take what we are as eternal, what could be greater than exaltation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: potential greater gifts, I believe agency is as eternal as we are and I think the atonement and exaltation are confounded.</p>
<p>&#8230;but to your thesis, I we take what we are as eternal, what could be greater than exaltation?</p>
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