Comments on: Race and the Church http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/ A Mormon Blog Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:39:41 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: A Motley Vision » Criticism: Of Narratives And Cuckoos http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/#comment-127889 A Motley Vision » Criticism: Of Narratives And Cuckoos Tue, 18 Jul 2006 16:08:09 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=1597#comment-127889 [...] IMO, fertile, native narratives tapping directly into pro-creative, pro-active “Choose ye this day” rhetoric aren’t forthcoming fast enough. Miscarrying, cuckolding language of “This is the only way” narratives abound. We LDS aren’t always discerning enough to recognize the invading rhetoric of parasitic ideologies; sometimes we take them underwing and raise them as our own (like this one). Also, we aren’t producing enough native narratives of the “Choose ye this day” variety to meet the needs of people within and without the church searching for viable and possibility-laden language. Stories merely reinforcing cultural boundaries won’t do; they won’t matter to others in the way that stories reinforcing others’ cultural boundaries don’t matter to us. We need to produce original stories in the root meaning of “arising, appearing, coming into being.” Truly original narratives open possibilities for development: they multiply and replenish agency, not just for humans but for other species living on Earth. [...] [...] IMO, fertile, native narratives tapping directly into pro-creative, pro-active “Choose ye this day” rhetoric aren’t forthcoming fast enough. Miscarrying, cuckolding language of “This is the only way” narratives abound. We LDS aren’t always discerning enough to recognize the invading rhetoric of parasitic ideologies; sometimes we take them underwing and raise them as our own (like this one). Also, we aren’t producing enough native narratives of the “Choose ye this day” variety to meet the needs of people within and without the church searching for viable and possibility-laden language. Stories merely reinforcing cultural boundaries won’t do; they won’t matter to others in the way that stories reinforcing others’ cultural boundaries don’t matter to us. We need to produce original stories in the root meaning of “arising, appearing, coming into being.” Truly original narratives open possibilities for development: they multiply and replenish agency, not just for humans but for other species living on Earth. [...]

]]> By: Margaret Young http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/#comment-127888 Margaret Young Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:38:06 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=1597#comment-127888 Check out Jim Beardall's Gospel Doctrine lesson 12 on a google. He quotes Mark E. Peterson suggesting in very convoluted logic that Asenath was definitely Semitic--and brings up the priesthood restriction in the process. That is as of today, March 19, 2006. Check out Jim Beardall’s Gospel Doctrine lesson 12 on a google. He quotes Mark E. Peterson suggesting in very convoluted logic that Asenath was definitely Semitic–and brings up the priesthood restriction in the process. That is as of today, March 19, 2006.

]]> By: Scott Kenney http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/#comment-127887 Scott Kenney Sun, 12 Feb 2006 01:11:43 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=1597#comment-127887 Enroute to the Church Office Building, I heard KALL radio's inital broadcast re: The Revelation (... er, polciy change). Rushing in to break the news, I found Leonard and the rest of the crew celebrating (well ...). My only crack at the church history hall of fame instantly evaporated, but boy were we happy. PS you probably don't know me, Molly, but I'm a great fan. Thanks to you and who-the-heck is to be blamed for this resource. A blogging neophyte. Enroute to the Church Office Building, I heard KALL radio’s inital broadcast re: The Revelation (… er, polciy change). Rushing in to break the news, I found Leonard and the rest of the crew celebrating (well …). My only crack at the church history hall of fame instantly evaporated, but boy were we happy. PS you probably don’t know me, Molly, but I’m a great fan. Thanks to you and who-the-heck is to be blamed for this resource. A blogging neophyte.

]]> By: Emma's Son http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/#comment-127886 Emma's Son Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:49:31 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=1597#comment-127886 <blockquote>"<strong>The times they are a changing</strong>."</blockquote> A letter I wrote to Dennis of "Genesis" (SLC) back in Sept. 2005 after reading his experience as a Black Mormon: It is wonderful and amazing how the Lord ministers to each one of us and then connects us all together. I truly enjoyed your story and life and rejoice in the great blessings God has given you and your eternal wife. It has touched my heart deeply. When he opens our eyes, hearts and minds to his greater love and mercy we can truly forgive the sinner within and then go on and forgive those who trespass against us. Forgive me for preaching, but like you I feel the words you write on a deep level that I judge no one and rejoice in the stories of the converts. While on my mission (Northern California 6/72-7/74) I learn many hard lessons from the saints. Being a new convert, a New Yorker and a former "wanna be hippie" my status among the Elders was very low. However, as you know being low in the gospel works in your favor in the eyes of the Lord. As a youth in my life I always looked to the Black people around me as the more humble and spiritual ones. I read a book once "Black Like Me" written by a white man who injected himself with a dye to look black who moved down south during the 50s or 60s to experience first hand how blacks were treated. I guess my becoming a hippie was a way of taking the low road to find out how it feels to be misunderstood and looked down upon. I went to answer the call of Jimmy Hendrixs. I wanted to be experienced! Now thanks to the Lord I can say "I Have!" During my first month out on my mission in the Sacramento area my companion and I baptized a black man. This man John had great faith and joined the church before the ban on the priesthood was lifted. I was overjoyed in this blessing to know and bless this man who was lowly in heart, but rich in faith. I know the Lord lives and his church is truth, but as you know the members are many times not true. It has always been easier for me to love the sinner (especially those who repent), than the saint ( who thinks he has done no wrong). However, over the years the Lord has increased my love, patience and understanding to turn the other cheek and go the extra mile and love the saint like the sinner.

“The times they are a changing.”

A letter I wrote to Dennis of “Genesis” (SLC) back in Sept. 2005 after reading his experience as a Black Mormon:
It is wonderful and amazing how the Lord ministers to each one of us and then connects us all together. I truly enjoyed your story and life and rejoice in the great blessings God has given you and your eternal wife. It has touched my heart deeply. When he opens our eyes, hearts and minds to his greater love and mercy we can truly forgive the sinner within and then go on and forgive those who trespass against us. Forgive me for preaching, but like you I feel the words you write on a deep level that I judge no one and rejoice in the stories of the converts. While on my mission (Northern California 6/72-7/74) I learn many hard lessons from the saints. Being a new convert, a New Yorker and a former “wanna be hippie” my status among the Elders was very low. However, as you know being low in the gospel works in your favor in the eyes of the Lord. As a youth in my life I always looked to the Black people around me as the more humble and spiritual ones. I read a book once “Black Like Me” written by a white man who injected himself with a dye to look black who moved down south during the 50s or 60s to experience first hand how blacks were treated. I guess my becoming a hippie was a way of taking the low road to find out how it feels to be misunderstood and looked down upon. I went to answer the call of Jimmy Hendrixs. I wanted to be experienced! Now thanks to the Lord I can say “I Have!” During my first month out on my mission in the Sacramento area my companion and I baptized a black man. This man John had great faith and joined the church before the ban on the priesthood was lifted. I was overjoyed in this blessing to know and bless this man who was lowly in heart, but rich in faith. I know the Lord lives and his church is truth, but as you know the members are many times not true. It has always been easier for me to love the sinner (especially those who repent), than the saint ( who thinks he has done no wrong). However, over the years the Lord has increased my love, patience and understanding to turn the other cheek and go the extra mile and love the saint like the sinner.

]]> By: J. Stapley http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/#comment-127885 J. Stapley Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:54:55 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=1597#comment-127885 Margaret, I think there are many shades of foreordenation that could be construed to affect ones station in life. That is not to say that there aren't distorted foreordaination theologies floating about. I think it is reasonable that God is cognisant of our indavidual situations, even to the extent that our race, family and consequent social situation was determined by God. One could make the case that a Zimbabwaian is statistically more likely to accept the gospel than say a frenchmen and that consequently frenchmen are less valiant, but I don't think extrapolation makes sense in this topic. Margaret, I think there are many shades of foreordenation that could be construed to affect ones station in life. That is not to say that there aren’t distorted foreordaination theologies floating about.

I think it is reasonable that God is cognisant of our indavidual situations, even to the extent that our race, family and consequent social situation was determined by God.

One could make the case that a Zimbabwaian is statistically more likely to accept the gospel than say a frenchmen and that consequently frenchmen are less valiant, but I don’t think extrapolation makes sense in this topic.

]]> By: Margaret Young http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/#comment-127884 Margaret Young Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:44:19 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=1597#comment-127884 What you will find in talking with many BYU religion professors (and with some white Baptist ministers) is the idea that Asenath was Hyksos. Very unlikely, since the Hyksos left the Egyptians in their religious places and Asenath was a daughtter of Potipherah (notwithstanding some Jewish Apocryphal literature listed as LEGEND, which attempts to diminish Asenath's differences from the Semites). I have an important question, though. Gospel Doctrine classes recently taught a lesson called "Thou wast chosen before thou wast born." In a class I attended, the lesson veered into teachings about valiancy in the pre-existence and suggested that our "station and circumstance in this life" was a reward or punishment for our pre-mortal behavior. I heard of other classes that went that route also--though a few brave souls spoke up. Did anyone on this blog find that lesson being used to validate the idea of valience in the pre-existence determining our race, economic status, or access to the gospel? What you will find in talking with many BYU religion professors (and with some white Baptist ministers) is the idea that Asenath was Hyksos. Very unlikely, since the Hyksos left the Egyptians in their religious places and Asenath was a daughtter of Potipherah (notwithstanding some Jewish Apocryphal literature listed as LEGEND, which attempts to diminish Asenath’s differences from the Semites). I have an important question, though. Gospel Doctrine classes recently taught a lesson called “Thou wast chosen before thou wast born.” In a class I attended, the lesson veered into teachings about valiancy in the pre-existence and suggested that our “station and circumstance in this life” was a reward or punishment for our pre-mortal behavior. I heard of other classes that went that route also–though a few brave souls spoke up. Did anyone on this blog find that lesson being used to validate the idea of valience in the pre-existence determining our race, economic status, or access to the gospel?

]]> By: Paul http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/#comment-127883 Paul Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:44:11 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=1597#comment-127883 I just found this page, so hope my thoughts speak to the issue (I can be inappropriate at times). As I read through all of this I remembered Gene England's essay, "The Mormon Cross",in Dialogue, about his personal difficulties with the doctrine before the revelation to President Kimball. If you haven't read it, I think it is also in one of his collected essay books. I miss his writing--concerns with poverty,etc. I also remember Hugh Nibley's thoughtful comments in Sunstone before the revelation, reminding and really chastising (like he always did) the non-African men in the church reminding them (D&C 121) that it was Amen to the priesthood power of any man who even thought about priesthood in a way that meant they were better than any one else or that it was thought of pridefully, or in any other way than the job of being the servant of everyone else. He also said the actual mark of Cain, if we read the scripture correctly, was to be a blessing... that it was somehow to be seen in order to protect Cain.. I'm not sure of that but I think it's worth some contemplation on what that could mean. I was on my mission when I heard the news of the revelation... It was like the world was renewed and blessed... I was so excited I just had to run around outside my house and jump for joy and look for anyone I could tell, it is still a high point in my life. I couldn't even contain the joy, the Spirit was so strong confirming the truth and our church's evolution. Before that, I thought as did Nibley, that the earlier doctrine was really a test for the non-Africans, and if I could really understand God's Will on it, that it actually said nothing at all negative about the Africans... That it was about us--we were the ones who needed to repent, and need the time to get to a level of spirituality where we could become equal with them--and my experiences with both African-American churches and Africans still makes me think that and question if we are even close... I love dancing and clapping and putting my whole Soul (Spirit and Body=Soul) into worship like the services I've attended... Sometimes I struggle with staying awake in LDS services(we still don't bring the body part of the Soul equation to services)... I just hope that we haven't exported the incoporeal Wasatch spirit of praise and worship to African congregations or to congregations in America with soulful African-Americans--what a loss if we have.. We need to evolve there still.. I do play Gladys Knights new LDS album in my car, just to inspire hope of it.... I remember how my wife and I used to have to sneak past all of the temple workers when we went to the Temple to find a place, so we could dance around in the Temple when the Spirit was so strong and called for Soul level worship. Anyway, thanks for the topic, all of your great contributions, hope mine aren't too inappropriate, and as we think of Reverend Martin Luther King this month, and of all of the racism, oppression that still exists... I pray we remember his dream and God's plan and move forward in the Church and in our world to more of God's Image of His Children--exalted, noble, saved for the last days--the best for last (Saturday Warrior, right?)black or red or yellow or brown or white... brothers and sisters literally, all with our lessons... and eternal glory and lots of dancing ahead if we get it right. Amen. I just found this page, so hope my thoughts speak to the issue (I can be inappropriate at times). As I read through all of this I remembered Gene England’s essay, “The Mormon Cross”,in Dialogue, about his personal difficulties with the doctrine before the revelation to President Kimball. If you haven’t read it, I think it is also in one of his collected essay books. I miss his writing–concerns with poverty,etc. I also remember Hugh Nibley’s thoughtful comments in Sunstone before the revelation, reminding and really chastising (like he always did) the non-African men in the church reminding them (D&C 121) that it was Amen to the priesthood power of any man who even thought about priesthood in a way that meant they were better than any one else or that it was thought of pridefully, or in any other way than the job of being the servant of everyone else. He also said the actual mark of Cain, if we read the scripture correctly, was to be a blessing… that it was somehow to be seen in order to protect Cain.. I’m not sure of that but I think it’s worth some contemplation on what that could mean. I was on my mission when I heard the news of the revelation… It was like the world was renewed and blessed… I was so excited I just had to run around outside my house and jump for joy and look for anyone I could tell, it is still a high point in my life. I couldn’t even contain the joy, the Spirit was so strong confirming the truth and our church’s evolution. Before that, I thought as did Nibley, that the earlier doctrine was really a test for the non-Africans, and if I could really understand God’s Will on it, that it actually said nothing at all negative about the Africans… That it was about us–we were the ones who needed to repent, and need the time to get to a level of spirituality where we could become equal with them–and my experiences with both African-American churches and Africans still makes me think that and question if we are even close… I love dancing and clapping and putting my whole Soul (Spirit and Body=Soul) into worship like the services I’ve attended… Sometimes I struggle with staying awake in LDS services(we still don’t bring the body part of the Soul equation to services)… I just hope that we haven’t exported the incoporeal Wasatch spirit of praise and worship to African congregations or to congregations in America with soulful African-Americans–what a loss if we have.. We need to evolve there still.. I do play Gladys Knights new LDS album in my car, just to inspire hope of it…. I remember how my wife and I used to have to sneak past all of the temple workers when we went to the Temple to find a place, so we could dance around in the Temple when the Spirit was so strong and called for Soul level worship. Anyway, thanks for the topic, all of your great contributions, hope mine aren’t too inappropriate, and as we think of Reverend Martin Luther King this month, and of all of the racism, oppression that still exists… I pray we remember his dream and God’s plan and move forward in the Church and in our world to more of God’s Image of His Children–exalted, noble, saved for the last days–the best for last (Saturday Warrior, right?)black or red or yellow or brown or white… brothers and sisters literally, all with our lessons… and eternal glory and lots of dancing ahead if we get it right. Amen.

]]> By: Larry Ogan http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/#comment-127882 Larry Ogan Thu, 12 Jan 2006 03:53:03 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=1597#comment-127882 Racism, no matter were it orginates, is an ugly sin. Our Savior commanded us to love one another and died to save all people. He didn't say in any of the scriptures "love your neighbors except for the blonde people and the freckled face kids or any other person differnt from ourselves." We should love our black brothers and sisters the same as any of our other brothers and sisters. Maybe for now we should give them a little extra love just to make sure they know we care. Any Latter Day Saint who maintians a rascist attitude in this life will not end up where they expected to on the other side. We can intellectualize about racism all we like but it doesn't change the fact that racism is hate and is evil. Any religous person who continues this practice is denying the love of Jesus Christ his great atonement for all of us. Racism, no matter were it orginates, is an ugly sin. Our Savior commanded us to love one another and died to save all people. He didn’t say in any of the scriptures “love your neighbors except for the blonde people and the freckled face kids or any other person differnt from ourselves.” We should love our black brothers and sisters the same as any of our other brothers and sisters. Maybe for now we should give them a little extra love just to make sure they know we care.

Any Latter Day Saint who maintians a rascist attitude in this life will not end up where they expected to on the other side. We can intellectualize about racism all we like but it doesn’t change the fact that racism is hate and is evil. Any religous person who continues this practice is denying the love of Jesus Christ his great atonement for all of us.

]]> By: Dave Johnson http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/#comment-127881 Dave Johnson Mon, 09 Jan 2006 01:21:57 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=1597#comment-127881 I don’t think we should be too critical of McConkie (I recognize, as pointed out above, he could be very free with his own severe criticisms). For my tastes, his version of Mormonism didn’t capture some of the essential benefits of our religion (he whittled away at eternal progression and didn’t seem fully convinced of the possibility of repentance in too many circumstances), and he spent too much effort retaining our worst thoughts (hyper-exceptionalism (including racial superiority), blood atonement…). But, I think his mix of fundamentalist Christianity and 19th century Mormonism, was, in fact, an authentic (if unfortunate) form of Mormonism. Though the theology of Joseph Smith and his written outlook was generally progressively liberal, there were authoritarian actions and some teachings in the early Church that planted the seeds for the fundamentalists among us (George Q. Cannon, Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce McConkie, …) to later tend and harvest. Yes, McConkie confused arrogance and a lack of doubt (or deep thinking) for rectitude. But, his negative (IMHO) theological influence is more than just an fundamentalist aberration that by circumstance (his daring and his status as Joseph Fielding Smith’s protected son-in-law) became a dominant theological tendency. BTW, I don’t think this is a thread jack, because McConkie, Smith, and Cannon, and their fundamentalist attitudes toward race and past teachings, were important pieces of our story of “Race and the Church.” I don’t think we should be too critical of McConkie (I recognize, as pointed out above, he could be very free with his own severe criticisms).
For my tastes, his version of Mormonism didn’t capture some of the essential benefits of our religion (he whittled away at eternal progression and didn’t seem fully convinced of the possibility of repentance in too many circumstances), and he spent too much effort retaining our worst thoughts (hyper-exceptionalism (including racial superiority), blood atonement…).
But, I think his mix of fundamentalist Christianity and 19th century Mormonism, was, in fact, an authentic (if unfortunate) form of Mormonism. Though the theology of Joseph Smith and his written outlook was generally progressively liberal, there were authoritarian actions and some teachings in the early Church that planted the seeds for the fundamentalists among us (George Q. Cannon, Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce McConkie, …) to later tend and harvest.
Yes, McConkie confused arrogance and a lack of doubt (or deep thinking) for rectitude. But, his negative (IMHO) theological influence is more than just an fundamentalist aberration that by circumstance (his daring and his status as Joseph Fielding Smith’s protected son-in-law) became a dominant theological tendency.

BTW, I don’t think this is a thread jack, because McConkie, Smith, and Cannon, and their fundamentalist attitudes toward race and past teachings, were important pieces of our story of “Race and the Church.”

]]> By: Stirling http://bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/01/race-and-the-church/#comment-127880 Stirling Sun, 08 Jan 2006 16:10:37 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=1597#comment-127880 I’d avoid using such a derogatory term. (Though McConkie’s rhetoric took that approach, see his <em>Mormon Doctrine</em> entry calling the minds of people who believed in evolution “weak and puerile” (‘66 and later versions) and “scrubby and groveling” (1958 version)). I recently had a couple of <em>Seventh East Press</em> and <em>Student Review </em>issues scanned and OCR-ed as a test for putting all issues in an archive of searchable pdf files (a la <em>BYU Studies </em>& <em>Dialogue </em>(and soon, the <em>Journal of Mormon History</em>)). In the <em>7EP </em>sample I ran across this relevant tidbit in the “Campus Chatter” column from the 18 Jan 82 issue: <blockquote> “The published talks of the 1979 Sperry Symposium contain the following sentence in the biographical paragraph for Elder Bruce R. McConkie: ‘All his life he has manifested a propensity for the Scriptures and an unusual understanding of Church Doctrine. (p. 17)’” </blockquote> I’d avoid using such a derogatory term. (Though McConkie’s rhetoric took that approach, see his Mormon Doctrine entry calling the minds of people who believed in evolution “weak and puerile” (‘66 and later versions) and “scrubby and groveling” (1958 version)).

I recently had a couple of Seventh East Press and Student Review issues scanned and OCR-ed as a test for putting all issues in an archive of searchable pdf files (a la BYU Studies & Dialogue (and soon, the Journal of Mormon History)).

In the 7EP sample I ran across this relevant tidbit in the “Campus Chatter” column from the 18 Jan 82 issue:

“The published talks of the 1979 Sperry Symposium contain the following sentence in the biographical paragraph for Elder Bruce R. McConkie: ‘All his life he has manifested a propensity for the Scriptures and an unusual understanding of Church Doctrine. (p. 17)’”

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