Comments on: Seer stone lessons

By: dc28

dc28 — Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:09:48 +0000

Urim and Thummin are directly from hebrew, they were first mentioned by aaron. It is unlikely that J.Smith Jr. at an early age in backwater N.Y. at the time, had much knowledge of U&T from any formal training. Use of the U&T as well as other “gadgets” is very common in ancient Judeo-Christian hertige, ie. Temple of Solomon. The question one has to ask of any religion at the end of the day is, by looking at the adherents, is their life style “christian”? People do not live in a good way for decades in an evil empire. Even Mormons don’t believe that they will be the only ones in heaven, just that they get a little head start in self preparation to get there, that at some time others will follow the same path. I personally find just about every so called Christian religion has a closet full of strange beginnings, starting with the Catholics and on to the corner Evangelical. I would not expect anything different when dealing with the mystic divinity. Moses and the Israelites are a case in point. Really weird stuff there, but it is well accepted by everyone. ie. Moses’ staff, Manna, water rocks, pillar of fire. So, in conclusion, it is quite reasonable for Mormons to claim a U&T connection.

By: gr

gr — Sat, 08 Jul 2006 01:55:47 +0000

I wish I could remember the source – perhaps the article mentioned above – but Joseph Smith mentioned later in life he no longer needed seer stones. He had becomes advanced enough in the workings of the spirit that he internalized the functions of a seer stone. So yes, a seer stone is a “gadget”, but a very useful one for the vast majority seeking further light and knowledge. They certainly seemed a very useful ladder for Smith to get to where he needed to go. How many of us can say we’re that advanced?

By: Talon

Talon — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:53:58 +0000

Also, that there were two stones in silver bowsâ€”and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummimâ€”deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted Seers in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

It appears that the possession of “gadgets” is essential to be a Seer, and furthermore, that the translation of the BOM would not have been possible without them, as they were specifically prepared for the translation of the book.

Does the possession of a Seer stone, constitute a Seer in present times? I take this passage to mean that if the Church (ie. The Prophet and 12) did not have the use of Seer stones we would only sustain them as Prophets and Revelators, rather than Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.

By: Geoff J

Geoff J — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:04:54 +0000

I’m with y’all. In addition to the analogies Kaimi brought up I have also compared such “gadgets” to Dumbo’s feather in the past.

By: Kevin Barney

Kevin Barney — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:55:03 +0000

It should be good. Mark Ashurst-McGee has made himself the expert on this topic, and has presented on it at MHA.

By: J. Stapley

J. Stapley — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:48:48 +0000

Agreed, Kevin, that is a great article. I will probably do a review once I have read it, but I just ordered the following thesis from UMI that looks quite splendid:

A pathway to prophethood: Joseph Smith Junior as rodsman, village seer, and Judeo-Christian prophet. Ashurst-McGee, Mark, MA. UTAH STATE UNIVERSITY, 2000. 387 pp. Advisor: Toelken, Barre

By: Kevin Barney

Kevin Barney — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:14:07 +0000

BTW, one of my favorite articles on this topic is:

Richard S. Van Wagoner and Steven C. Walker, “Joseph Smith: The Gift of Seeing,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, 15/2 (Summer 1982), pp. 48-68.

http://content.lib.utah.edu/cgi-bin/docviewer.exe?CISOROOT=/dialogue&CISOPTR=16574

By: Kevin Barney

Kevin Barney — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:07:58 +0000

Nibley addresses this issue to some extent in the introductory chapters to his magnum opus, The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri, which has just been reissued in a new edition by FARMS. It has been too long since I read it for me to recall specifically what he says, but I vividly recall the great caption he gave this material:

“Are Gadgets Necessary?”

(By “gadgets” he included revelatory helps such as seer stones.)

I think the answer was along the lines of what Kaimi writes above.

On another note, our church artwork (showing Joseph laboring over the plates and such) doesn’t do a very good job of preparing the Saints for the reality that Joseph dictated what we have of the BoM with his face buried in a hat gazing at the seerstone. A lot of people cough up a hairball when they first learn what the procedure really was.

By: john fowles

john fowles — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:51:26 +0000

Kaimi, I liked your spit and mud comparison.

By: Kuykendahl

Kuykendahl — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:34:46 +0000

As an average, but less than informed member, I’ll second Kaimi’s comment.

I don’t view any of seer stones, U&T, Liahona, annointing oil, garments, divining rods, etc. as having any intrinsic “magic” or other spiritual or phyical capabilities.
Instead, to the extent any of these items add value, it is because they are a means of focussing one’s faith. Since a seer stone, the U&T, and a divining rod are enough outside of my cultural experience (though I used a water witch in scout activities several times growing up), they wouldn’t help me.
On the other hand, prayer, annointing oil, fasting, laying on of hands, these are items that do have some ritual resonance for me, and so can be spiritually productive.

Whatever type of “translation” or “revelation” Joseph did or received with the seer stones, I think could be done without them.