<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: On Nephi&#8217;s Steel Bow</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:12:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: mw*</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17591</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mw*]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2006 20:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[better late than never, I guess. Around 600 BC there were &quot;steel bows&quot; the Indo-Persian Bow, the Scythian Bow, both of which were precursors to the Parthian small steel recurve bow made famous by the parthians and there &quot;parthian shot&quot; around ~250 BC.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>better late than never, I guess. Around 600 BC there were &#8220;steel bows&#8221; the Indo-Persian Bow, the Scythian Bow, both of which were precursors to the Parthian small steel recurve bow made famous by the parthians and there &#8220;parthian shot&#8221; around ~250 BC.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17590</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 19:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17590</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m no linguist--thank goodness for folks like Blake and others who are able to recognize that which is authentically ancient about the BoM and share it with the rest of us--but I&#039;ve read enough Shakespeare and Ibsen to know that the BoM (fiction or not--and isn&#039;t) is absolultely miraculous especially if it&#039;s primal author were a dirty-faced uneducated twenty-one year old farm boy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m no linguist&#8211;thank goodness for folks like Blake and others who are able to recognize that which is authentically ancient about the BoM and share it with the rest of us&#8211;but I&#8217;ve read enough Shakespeare and Ibsen to know that the BoM (fiction or not&#8211;and isn&#8217;t) is absolultely miraculous especially if it&#8217;s primal author were a dirty-faced uneducated twenty-one year old farm boy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MikeInWeHo</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17589</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MikeInWeHo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 17:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really like that, Stirling.  Clearly much of scripture has to be viewed that way for it to make any sense at all.  Mormonism has never required literalism; on the contrary.  But it does become a lot messier when BoM questions are involved.  One can get away with saying Noah was a metaphor a lot easier than you can do the same with Nephi.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like that, Stirling.  Clearly much of scripture has to be viewed that way for it to make any sense at all.  Mormonism has never required literalism; on the contrary.  But it does become a lot messier when BoM questions are involved.  One can get away with saying Noah was a metaphor a lot easier than you can do the same with Nephi.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stirling</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17588</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stirling]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17588</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gunnar (#50), Ether 1:33 reads:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Which Jared came forth with his brother and their families, with some others and their families, from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth; and according to the word of the Lord the people were scattered.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Though I wouldn&#039;t typically read this sentence with my &quot;does-this-verse-accurately-depict-a-historical-event&quot; detector on, having turned that detector on, I would say that I wouldn&#039;t expect that the verse is historically accurate (given my view on the nature of God and my assumptions about the derivations of different human languages).
However, note that this sentence may be historically accurate from the perspective of someone who views reality and the way events have occurred as being caused by God. For that reader, verse 33 could be another way of restating this assertion:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Jared and his family migrated here after humans dispersed into multiple geographic locations and developed different languages.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gunnar (#50), Ether 1:33 reads:</p>
<blockquote><p>Which Jared came forth with his brother and their families, with some others and their families, from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth; and according to the word of the Lord the people were scattered.</p></blockquote>
<p>Though I wouldn&#8217;t typically read this sentence with my &#8220;does-this-verse-accurately-depict-a-historical-event&#8221; detector on, having turned that detector on, I would say that I wouldn&#8217;t expect that the verse is historically accurate (given my view on the nature of God and my assumptions about the derivations of different human languages).<br />
However, note that this sentence may be historically accurate from the perspective of someone who views reality and the way events have occurred as being caused by God. For that reader, verse 33 could be another way of restating this assertion:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Jared and his family migrated here after humans dispersed into multiple geographic locations and developed different languages.</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17587</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[J.&#039;s right on.  This is not the Foyer, nor is there a view from here into it.  Discussions of whether the BoM is a fictional text are simply out-of-place here and need to stop.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J.&#8217;s right on.  This is not the Foyer, nor is there a view from here into it.  Discussions of whether the BoM is a fictional text are simply out-of-place here and need to stop.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17586</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17586</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quick aside: let&#039;s drop the use of TBM. We&#039;re not antimormons here.  And Gunnar, this is not a forum that caters to message-board style exchange.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quick aside: let&#8217;s drop the use of TBM. We&#8217;re not antimormons here.  And Gunnar, this is not a forum that caters to message-board style exchange.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: rleonard</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17585</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rleonard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 16:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gunnar,

I have also seen the flood story taught and discussed both ways. In fact I myself as a TBM am agnostic about the flood story. Church courts are not going to be called cause Sister Smith thinks the Noah story is a myth and openly says so.  Come on now lets be more charitable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gunnar,</p>
<p>I have also seen the flood story taught and discussed both ways. In fact I myself as a TBM am agnostic about the flood story. Church courts are not going to be called cause Sister Smith thinks the Noah story is a myth and openly says so.  Come on now lets be more charitable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gunnar</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17584</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gunnar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:49:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17584</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stirling,
Can I correctly infer, then, that you agree that the Book of Jared, at least, in the BoM is fictional--or at least the part of it that explains the reason for their location to the Americas?

I had alread read the Sunstone magazine to which you referred before I found this website and found it very enlightening and interesting.  I would have been more impressed and encouraged by it, though, if it had appeared in the Church&#039;s Official magazine, The Ensign, or at least acknowledged and endorsed by it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stirling,<br />
Can I correctly infer, then, that you agree that the Book of Jared, at least, in the BoM is fictional&#8211;or at least the part of it that explains the reason for their location to the Americas?</p>
<p>I had alread read the Sunstone magazine to which you referred before I found this website and found it very enlightening and interesting.  I would have been more impressed and encouraged by it, though, if it had appeared in the Church&#8217;s Official magazine, The Ensign, or at least acknowledged and endorsed by it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stirling</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17583</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stirling]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17583</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;&quot;Why would God not make any attempt to correct this mistaken understanding in those He called to be prophets? Is He not a God of truth as the prophets maintain?&quot;&lt;/em&gt;
Gunnar, it appears one of your assumptions about the relationship between God and a &quot;prophet&quot; is that God must communicate with the prophet in a way that assures the prophet is historically accurate in all of his/her understandings about the tribe&#039;s religious stories.
Do I misunderstand you?
Many Mormons don&#039;t share that assumption (I doubt President Hinckley does, and I think the biographies of some of the prophets involved in modifications and then reversal of the ethnicity-based priesthood/temple ban show that Mckay, JRClark, Kimball, HBBrown and some of the other involved leaders didn&#039;t share the assumption.

I can understand your wondering how a non-literal approach to the Noah&#039;s flood would be received in a current Gospel Doctrine class. While each ward is different, let me add to your database on that issue that I have been in many classes (in several different wards) where either the teacher or a class member raised the possibility of the Flood as myth or expressly taught it that way. In a couple of occasions (not all) some class members expressed discomfort with that interpretation and encouraged a more literal approach. But, there was never any hint that anyone might have felt this was an issue for which a &quot;court&quot; was remotely relevant.  See BYU professor Duane Jefferies article, &quot;Noahâ€™s Flood: Modern Scholarship And Mormon Traditions&quot; for further data points. The article in pdf format is at www.sunstoneonline.com/magazine/issues/134/134-27-45.pdf.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;Why would God not make any attempt to correct this mistaken understanding in those He called to be prophets? Is He not a God of truth as the prophets maintain?&#8221;</em><br />
Gunnar, it appears one of your assumptions about the relationship between God and a &#8220;prophet&#8221; is that God must communicate with the prophet in a way that assures the prophet is historically accurate in all of his/her understandings about the tribe&#8217;s religious stories.<br />
Do I misunderstand you?<br />
Many Mormons don&#8217;t share that assumption (I doubt President Hinckley does, and I think the biographies of some of the prophets involved in modifications and then reversal of the ethnicity-based priesthood/temple ban show that Mckay, JRClark, Kimball, HBBrown and some of the other involved leaders didn&#8217;t share the assumption.</p>
<p>I can understand your wondering how a non-literal approach to the Noah&#8217;s flood would be received in a current Gospel Doctrine class. While each ward is different, let me add to your database on that issue that I have been in many classes (in several different wards) where either the teacher or a class member raised the possibility of the Flood as myth or expressly taught it that way. In a couple of occasions (not all) some class members expressed discomfort with that interpretation and encouraged a more literal approach. But, there was never any hint that anyone might have felt this was an issue for which a &#8220;court&#8221; was remotely relevant.  See BYU professor Duane Jefferies article, &#8220;Noahâ€™s Flood: Modern Scholarship And Mormon Traditions&#8221; for further data points. The article in pdf format is at <a href="http://www.sunstoneonline.com/magazine/issues/134/134-27-45.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.sunstoneonline.com/magazine/issues/134/134-27-45.pdf</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gunnar</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/20/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17582</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gunnar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 14:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/on-nephis-steel-bow/#comment-17582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Blake,
Honestly, can you not see that your comments seem to strongly confirm my allegation of &quot;grasping at straws&quot; that I made in my initial post (#35 above)?  To argue that the supposedly divinely inspired authors of the BoM (or any other scripture, ancient or modern) could be as wrong as you seem to have acknowledged about the historicity of Noah&#039;s Flood and The Tower of Babel without raising strong, legitimate doubts about the veracity of the very claim that they were truly divinely inspired at all seems rather weak to me.  Why would God not make any attempt to correct this mistaken understanding in those He called to be prophets?  Is He not a God of truth as the prophets maintain?  Particularly in the case of the Book of Jared, if the Tower of Babel and the Jaredites divinely granted wish to avoid the divinely imposed confusion of tongues associated with that event was not the proximate cause of their leaving Babylon for the Americas under divine guidance to begin with, as claimed by the Book of Jared, how can that possibly not render at least that portion of the BoM ahistorical?

Besides, I said initially that the fact that the BoM accepts the literal historicity of Noah&#039;s Flood and The Tower of Babel was not the only reason I find it impossible to take the BoM seriously, though it remains a major one.

You agreed that there may be GAs that wouldn&#039;t like your views about mythos and scripture but that you know a few who would accept such a view.  If so, doesn&#039;t this lack of unanimity among GAs concerning doctrinal matters itself call into question the reliability of claims of divine inspiration?  Or do you deny that these are truly doctrinal matters?  Do you think that a Sunday School Gospel Doctrine teacher who expressed such views in class or who acknowledged that the story of Noah&#039;s Flood should not be taken literally would not be dismissed and called before a Church court and tried and excommunicated for preaching false doctrine?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake,<br />
Honestly, can you not see that your comments seem to strongly confirm my allegation of &#8220;grasping at straws&#8221; that I made in my initial post (#35 above)?  To argue that the supposedly divinely inspired authors of the BoM (or any other scripture, ancient or modern) could be as wrong as you seem to have acknowledged about the historicity of Noah&#8217;s Flood and The Tower of Babel without raising strong, legitimate doubts about the veracity of the very claim that they were truly divinely inspired at all seems rather weak to me.  Why would God not make any attempt to correct this mistaken understanding in those He called to be prophets?  Is He not a God of truth as the prophets maintain?  Particularly in the case of the Book of Jared, if the Tower of Babel and the Jaredites divinely granted wish to avoid the divinely imposed confusion of tongues associated with that event was not the proximate cause of their leaving Babylon for the Americas under divine guidance to begin with, as claimed by the Book of Jared, how can that possibly not render at least that portion of the BoM ahistorical?</p>
<p>Besides, I said initially that the fact that the BoM accepts the literal historicity of Noah&#8217;s Flood and The Tower of Babel was not the only reason I find it impossible to take the BoM seriously, though it remains a major one.</p>
<p>You agreed that there may be GAs that wouldn&#8217;t like your views about mythos and scripture but that you know a few who would accept such a view.  If so, doesn&#8217;t this lack of unanimity among GAs concerning doctrinal matters itself call into question the reliability of claims of divine inspiration?  Or do you deny that these are truly doctrinal matters?  Do you think that a Sunday School Gospel Doctrine teacher who expressed such views in class or who acknowledged that the story of Noah&#8217;s Flood should not be taken literally would not be dismissed and called before a Church court and tried and excommunicated for preaching false doctrine?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

