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	<title>Comments on: A brief review of Mormon intimacy</title>
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		<title>By: Rick T.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/24/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61819</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick T.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 20:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61819</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Teresa, thanks for your posts.  I hadn&#039;t been back to look at this for awhile.  It&#039;s good to know that I&#039;m not the only one in the world who struggles with some of these questions. Your experiences and insights are helpful.  Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Teresa, thanks for your posts.  I hadn&#8217;t been back to look at this for awhile.  It&#8217;s good to know that I&#8217;m not the only one in the world who struggles with some of these questions. Your experiences and insights are helpful.  Thanks.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Teresa</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/24/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61818</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teresa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61818</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just read my last post as well as Rick T&#039;s. I cannot find anywhere where there are clear answers for married people about certain sexual practices that are current, except for fornication and adultery and of course avoiding pornography. I used to think any stimulation outside of intercourse was wrong. I used to think any thoughts about sex were wrong. I used to think if I desired my husband sexually, that I was guilty of lust. As you can see, I must have caused my husband a lot of unnecessary grief. Laura Brotherson woke me up. After a LOT of prayer, fasting, attending the temple for answers and a lot of study, my husband and I have found some answers that work for us. However, when I read church leaders comments about sexual relations I start heading back to my old ways of thinking. I wonder if I misinterpret their comments. When they give vague comments, it is hard to understand what they mean in today&#039;s world where there are so many voices and ideas and where the world can make black seem white and visa versa. We are told to get educated, but where can you go that is a safe place? It is easy to get desensitized as well. But, it is also really easy when you are trying to do the right things, to go over to the extremes and become out of balance and deny yourself and your spouse the joys that come through sexual intimacy with your spouse in the way the Lord intended.

It is easy to feel guilt for things that are perfectly fine...I know, I have done so for nearly 30 years of marriage. I think we get it into our heads that what the youth are taught is what is for all. Just because we are married does not magically help us have a healthy attitude about sex. Teaching YW most of my married life helped me develope the idea that I needed to live like I was teaching them to live, only I was married and sex was perfectly okay with my husband.
Also, if God ordained sex then why do we make it so unthinkable and not something we can discuss openly? I am not talking about our personal intimacy experiences, but in general terms. It is very frustrating. We are told to discuss sex with our children, but where do we go for answers? When we do not know what is okay, how can we teach them? My married sons got taught from a young couple who sat them down and had &quot;the talk&quot; with them. I was grateful, because we honestly did not know what to tell them.
I know as we grow in our sexual intimacy with our spouses we will grow and gain greater insights into what a Celestial marriage is. I have a strong testimony of that. I just wish I had more clarity of what is and is not acceptable to the Lord. We are told to seek Him out but why is it when I do and I get answers, I often feel I have sinned? Is it the Spirit telling me that or my improper and imperfect programming? A year ago, my husband and I made a serious attempt to gain a clear answer about something we wanted an answer to. One night while we were reading the Book of Mormon together, like we do every day, I had a burning in my bossom that permeated my whole body. I gained insight into how the Lord viewed that intimacy. I was not prepared to recieve such a powerful positive answer. My feelings about the Lord and our Father in Heaven grew tremendously during that time. My experiences and understanding of temple ordinances grew tremendously during that period of time when I was truly seeking for enlightenment and applying what I was learning.

When I first got the answers, I wrote them down as best as I could understand them. I did not share them with my husband at that time because I kept feeling I needed to wait until he got his answers.
I asked him the next day if he had gotten an answer, to which he replied that he had not. I asked if he wanted to hear my answer. He said he did, later telling me that he was asked by the Spirit if he trusted his wife to which he answered that he did. I shared the powerful answers I got.

I have never felt closer to my husband than I did after following the Spirit on that one.

It is interesting how I started feeling guilty again. I asked for a Priesthood blessing. I was told not to doubt the answers I got from the Lord. I was also told not to counsel the Lord. That morning I had started doubting my answers and started telling the Lord why I felt that way. I was slipping back to my old ways of thinking. I was told in the blessing the Lord was proud of my growth and not to backslide. It has been hard for me but as I put my trust in the answers I get from the Lord and not my imperfect understanding from years before, I find my husband and I have started acting more like newly weds. So, the things we are told about seeking the Lord out and trusting our answers work. The journey is painful, and like any other Gospel subject, we must make it a serious matter of study and not worry that it is pornography. Just be careful of the places you go to get educated. Don&#039;t let prudishness guide your actions. But let enlightenment and guidance from the Spirit guide you and as you do, you will find hidden treasures that will bring you and your Spouse closer than you ever dreamed possible.

I promise the Lord is more interested in your sex life with your spouse than you could ever dream possible. It will shock you how interested He is and how He will help the both of you. I also promise it will be one fo the most painful journeys you have been through, but it iwll be worth every bit of it. And be patient, like any other growth, it is line up one line and precept upon precept.

God bless you and your spouse as you build your Celestial marriage. Let&#039;s work together to bring sexual relations back into the Lord&#039;s territory.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just read my last post as well as Rick T&#8217;s. I cannot find anywhere where there are clear answers for married people about certain sexual practices that are current, except for fornication and adultery and of course avoiding pornography. I used to think any stimulation outside of intercourse was wrong. I used to think any thoughts about sex were wrong. I used to think if I desired my husband sexually, that I was guilty of lust. As you can see, I must have caused my husband a lot of unnecessary grief. Laura Brotherson woke me up. After a LOT of prayer, fasting, attending the temple for answers and a lot of study, my husband and I have found some answers that work for us. However, when I read church leaders comments about sexual relations I start heading back to my old ways of thinking. I wonder if I misinterpret their comments. When they give vague comments, it is hard to understand what they mean in today&#8217;s world where there are so many voices and ideas and where the world can make black seem white and visa versa. We are told to get educated, but where can you go that is a safe place? It is easy to get desensitized as well. But, it is also really easy when you are trying to do the right things, to go over to the extremes and become out of balance and deny yourself and your spouse the joys that come through sexual intimacy with your spouse in the way the Lord intended.</p>
<p>It is easy to feel guilt for things that are perfectly fine&#8230;I know, I have done so for nearly 30 years of marriage. I think we get it into our heads that what the youth are taught is what is for all. Just because we are married does not magically help us have a healthy attitude about sex. Teaching YW most of my married life helped me develope the idea that I needed to live like I was teaching them to live, only I was married and sex was perfectly okay with my husband.<br />
Also, if God ordained sex then why do we make it so unthinkable and not something we can discuss openly? I am not talking about our personal intimacy experiences, but in general terms. It is very frustrating. We are told to discuss sex with our children, but where do we go for answers? When we do not know what is okay, how can we teach them? My married sons got taught from a young couple who sat them down and had &#8220;the talk&#8221; with them. I was grateful, because we honestly did not know what to tell them.<br />
I know as we grow in our sexual intimacy with our spouses we will grow and gain greater insights into what a Celestial marriage is. I have a strong testimony of that. I just wish I had more clarity of what is and is not acceptable to the Lord. We are told to seek Him out but why is it when I do and I get answers, I often feel I have sinned? Is it the Spirit telling me that or my improper and imperfect programming? A year ago, my husband and I made a serious attempt to gain a clear answer about something we wanted an answer to. One night while we were reading the Book of Mormon together, like we do every day, I had a burning in my bossom that permeated my whole body. I gained insight into how the Lord viewed that intimacy. I was not prepared to recieve such a powerful positive answer. My feelings about the Lord and our Father in Heaven grew tremendously during that time. My experiences and understanding of temple ordinances grew tremendously during that period of time when I was truly seeking for enlightenment and applying what I was learning.</p>
<p>When I first got the answers, I wrote them down as best as I could understand them. I did not share them with my husband at that time because I kept feeling I needed to wait until he got his answers.<br />
I asked him the next day if he had gotten an answer, to which he replied that he had not. I asked if he wanted to hear my answer. He said he did, later telling me that he was asked by the Spirit if he trusted his wife to which he answered that he did. I shared the powerful answers I got.</p>
<p>I have never felt closer to my husband than I did after following the Spirit on that one.</p>
<p>It is interesting how I started feeling guilty again. I asked for a Priesthood blessing. I was told not to doubt the answers I got from the Lord. I was also told not to counsel the Lord. That morning I had started doubting my answers and started telling the Lord why I felt that way. I was slipping back to my old ways of thinking. I was told in the blessing the Lord was proud of my growth and not to backslide. It has been hard for me but as I put my trust in the answers I get from the Lord and not my imperfect understanding from years before, I find my husband and I have started acting more like newly weds. So, the things we are told about seeking the Lord out and trusting our answers work. The journey is painful, and like any other Gospel subject, we must make it a serious matter of study and not worry that it is pornography. Just be careful of the places you go to get educated. Don&#8217;t let prudishness guide your actions. But let enlightenment and guidance from the Spirit guide you and as you do, you will find hidden treasures that will bring you and your Spouse closer than you ever dreamed possible.</p>
<p>I promise the Lord is more interested in your sex life with your spouse than you could ever dream possible. It will shock you how interested He is and how He will help the both of you. I also promise it will be one fo the most painful journeys you have been through, but it iwll be worth every bit of it. And be patient, like any other growth, it is line up one line and precept upon precept.</p>
<p>God bless you and your spouse as you build your Celestial marriage. Let&#8217;s work together to bring sexual relations back into the Lord&#8217;s territory.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Teresa</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/24/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61817</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teresa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61817</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I meant to say, &quot;And are not things we know to be wrong&quot;. I did not convey what I was trying to get across in my last post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant to say, &#8220;And are not things we know to be wrong&#8221;. I did not convey what I was trying to get across in my last post.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Teresa</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/24/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61816</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teresa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61816</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have made these matters a serious matter of study and prayer and discussion with my husband of whom I have been married nearly 30 years. I thought I was doing things the right way most of my marriage, but came to realize, thanks the Laura Brotherson&#039;s inspired book, &quot;And They Were Not Ashamed: Strengthening Marriage Through Sexual Fulfillment&quot; that I was struggling with the &quot;Good Girl Syndrome&quot; that many good members of the Church struggle with. She is masterful in how she helps you recognize and overcome these crippling tendencies. You can get her book from her website www.StrengtheningMarriage.com or through Deseret Book. She is a popular speaker at BYU Education Weeks. She also taught this subject through Church Education Classes in Boise, Idaho. She turned me around and I am eternally grateful. She is very careful with quoting Church sources and scriptures. She helps you realize that it is God that designed us to enjoy sexual relations with our spouses and we should learn how He intended us to do it not avoid it in marriage. The Spirit is the great educator. Parley P Pratt said, &quot;The gift of the Holy Spirit . . . quickens all the intellectual faculties, increases, enlarges, expands and purifies all the natural passions and affections; and adapts them, by the gift of wisdom, to their lawful use...&quot; (Key to the Science of Theology, p.100 â€‘ p.101
I have asked the very questions Rick T  mentions above. My husband ansd I through careful study and prayer have come to the conclusion, that these matters where there is no clear answers, it is between husband and wife. If it does not chase away the Spirit or cause you to lose your desire for Spiritual things, and it draws you closer together, or are things we know to be wrong, it can be considered to be perfectly acceptable to the Lord.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have made these matters a serious matter of study and prayer and discussion with my husband of whom I have been married nearly 30 years. I thought I was doing things the right way most of my marriage, but came to realize, thanks the Laura Brotherson&#8217;s inspired book, &#8220;And They Were Not Ashamed: Strengthening Marriage Through Sexual Fulfillment&#8221; that I was struggling with the &#8220;Good Girl Syndrome&#8221; that many good members of the Church struggle with. She is masterful in how she helps you recognize and overcome these crippling tendencies. You can get her book from her website <a href="http://www.StrengtheningMarriage.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.StrengtheningMarriage.com</a> or through Deseret Book. She is a popular speaker at BYU Education Weeks. She also taught this subject through Church Education Classes in Boise, Idaho. She turned me around and I am eternally grateful. She is very careful with quoting Church sources and scriptures. She helps you realize that it is God that designed us to enjoy sexual relations with our spouses and we should learn how He intended us to do it not avoid it in marriage. The Spirit is the great educator. Parley P Pratt said, &#8220;The gift of the Holy Spirit . . . quickens all the intellectual faculties, increases, enlarges, expands and purifies all the natural passions and affections; and adapts them, by the gift of wisdom, to their lawful use&#8230;&#8221; (Key to the Science of Theology, p.100 â€‘ p.101<br />
I have asked the very questions Rick T  mentions above. My husband ansd I through careful study and prayer have come to the conclusion, that these matters where there is no clear answers, it is between husband and wife. If it does not chase away the Spirit or cause you to lose your desire for Spiritual things, and it draws you closer together, or are things we know to be wrong, it can be considered to be perfectly acceptable to the Lord.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: rm</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/24/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61815</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 03:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61815</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just think that sex between a couple is a very personal thing. It isn&#039;t anybody&#039;s business-they are consenting adults. If a couple has to go into their Bishop to ask what the &quot;rules&quot; are about sexual relations with their spouse, then I feel sorry for them. If they are that weakminded then maybe they shouldn&#039;t be married.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just think that sex between a couple is a very personal thing. It isn&#8217;t anybody&#8217;s business-they are consenting adults. If a couple has to go into their Bishop to ask what the &#8220;rules&#8221; are about sexual relations with their spouse, then I feel sorry for them. If they are that weakminded then maybe they shouldn&#8217;t be married.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rick T.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/24/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61814</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick T.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 18:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61814</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This discussion is something I have wondered about for some time.  I was particularly interested in Pete L&#039;s comment on August 27th.  I too have observed that virtually all of the discussion and condemnation of masturbation is directed at youth.  But what about after you&#039;re married, and as part of a healthy marital relationship?  It is my understanding that most women are not able to experience orgasm without masturbation, or some similar form of stimulation, which is often part of perfectly legitimate physical intimacy between spouses.

To be completely honest I am very confused by all this, and am trying to find dependable answers.  I am  genuinely curious, for example, about the propriety of oral sex as part of perfectly legitimate physical intimacy between spouses.

My own personal opinion is that once your married, the &quot;rules&quot; change.  But I&#039;m interested in a more definitive statement.  I saw that someone had commented that there aren&#039;t rules, only doctrine, and principals, but frankly I find them to be vague, ambiguous and confusing.

Based on a legal education and background, I know something about the problems of vagueness and ambiguity.  I also know that most generalizations have exceptions.  How does and should all of this apply in this context?  If this is a big issue that is going to potentially keep some good people out of the celestial kingdom, shouldn&#039;t it be addressed?

Instead of using the word &quot;rules,&quot; what about &quot;standards?&quot;  Heaven knows along with doctrine and principals, we also talk about standards.  What are the standards for physical intimacy, including such things as masturbation and oral sex within marriage, between spouses?

I&#039;m not talking about teeage boys here!  I&#039;m talking about    standards for physical intimacy between mature married spouses.

Again, if this is a big deal, that is going to impede a bunch of people&#039;s eternal progression, why don&#039;t we get some more concrete direction about it?

Is it because it isn&#039;t a big deal?  It isn&#039;t going to impede a bunch of people&#039;s eternal progression -- because it&#039;s essentially all fair game within the bounds of marriage?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This discussion is something I have wondered about for some time.  I was particularly interested in Pete L&#8217;s comment on August 27th.  I too have observed that virtually all of the discussion and condemnation of masturbation is directed at youth.  But what about after you&#8217;re married, and as part of a healthy marital relationship?  It is my understanding that most women are not able to experience orgasm without masturbation, or some similar form of stimulation, which is often part of perfectly legitimate physical intimacy between spouses.</p>
<p>To be completely honest I am very confused by all this, and am trying to find dependable answers.  I am  genuinely curious, for example, about the propriety of oral sex as part of perfectly legitimate physical intimacy between spouses.</p>
<p>My own personal opinion is that once your married, the &#8220;rules&#8221; change.  But I&#8217;m interested in a more definitive statement.  I saw that someone had commented that there aren&#8217;t rules, only doctrine, and principals, but frankly I find them to be vague, ambiguous and confusing.</p>
<p>Based on a legal education and background, I know something about the problems of vagueness and ambiguity.  I also know that most generalizations have exceptions.  How does and should all of this apply in this context?  If this is a big issue that is going to potentially keep some good people out of the celestial kingdom, shouldn&#8217;t it be addressed?</p>
<p>Instead of using the word &#8220;rules,&#8221; what about &#8220;standards?&#8221;  Heaven knows along with doctrine and principals, we also talk about standards.  What are the standards for physical intimacy, including such things as masturbation and oral sex within marriage, between spouses?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not talking about teeage boys here!  I&#8217;m talking about    standards for physical intimacy between mature married spouses.</p>
<p>Again, if this is a big deal, that is going to impede a bunch of people&#8217;s eternal progression, why don&#8217;t we get some more concrete direction about it?</p>
<p>Is it because it isn&#8217;t a big deal?  It isn&#8217;t going to impede a bunch of people&#8217;s eternal progression &#8212; because it&#8217;s essentially all fair game within the bounds of marriage?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Dustin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/24/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61813</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dustin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Sep 2006 21:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61813</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gene talks about the selfishness of masturbation, and Pete asks about masturbation for married people. What about selfishness of a spouse not satisfying the other&#039;s needs, pushing them towards masturbation? Which is the greater sin?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gene talks about the selfishness of masturbation, and Pete asks about masturbation for married people. What about selfishness of a spouse not satisfying the other&#8217;s needs, pushing them towards masturbation? Which is the greater sin?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pete L.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/24/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61812</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pete L.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61812</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just came across this and thougt I would ask if has anyone considered what role masturbation within temple marriage might play.  All of the liturature about masturbation seems directed at the youth and unmarried of the church but never mentions how things change after marriage. Masturbation in this sense has nothing to do with porn and only with thoughts and feeling towards your spouse, plus aquiring the added health benefits both physical and physiological in nature. Just looking for others experiences and insight.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just came across this and thougt I would ask if has anyone considered what role masturbation within temple marriage might play.  All of the liturature about masturbation seems directed at the youth and unmarried of the church but never mentions how things change after marriage. Masturbation in this sense has nothing to do with porn and only with thoughts and feeling towards your spouse, plus aquiring the added health benefits both physical and physiological in nature. Just looking for others experiences and insight.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/24/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61811</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jun 2006 01:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That would fall under President Hinkley&#039;s council as cited in footnote 5 of the original post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would fall under President Hinkley&#8217;s council as cited in footnote 5 of the original post.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/24/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61810</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/a-brief-review-of-mormon-intimacy/#comment-61810</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What about phone sex between married couples?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about phone sex between married couples?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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