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	<title>Comments on: Theodemocracy</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/</link>
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		<title>By: Splendid Sun &#187; The Seventy 1835-1845: Apostles of the Lord</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/#comment-61854</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Splendid Sun &#187; The Seventy 1835-1845: Apostles of the Lord]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 04:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/theodemocracy/#comment-61854</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The Nauvoo era is demarcated in Mormon history by three institutions: the Council of Fifty; the Anointed Quorum and the fullness of the Temple ordinances; and Polygamy. During this time, the Seventies participated in Missionary work with Twelve, but were not involved to the same extent as the Twelve in these developments. While the Twelve became the center of the new theological innovations, the First Council and the Seventy remained on the periphery (20). [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Nauvoo era is demarcated in Mormon history by three institutions: the Council of Fifty; the Anointed Quorum and the fullness of the Temple ordinances; and Polygamy. During this time, the Seventies participated in Missionary work with Twelve, but were not involved to the same extent as the Twelve in these developments. While the Twelve became the center of the new theological innovations, the First Council and the Seventy remained on the periphery (20). [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/#comment-61853</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Butler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/theodemocracy/#comment-61853</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is no work called &quot;Theodemocracy&quot; under discussion here.  The New and Old Testaments, especially the latter, have references enough to the temporal establishment of the Kingdom of God in the last days, although modern revelation would be more than adequate if they did not.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.

  And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

  For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
(Dan 10:14-17)


And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacobâ€™s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
(Jer 30:4-9)


Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

  Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

  But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
(Jer 23:5-8)


And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

  And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
(Isa 11:10-12)


And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

    Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
(Zech 6:12-13)


For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(Romans 11:25-27)
&lt;/blockquote&gt;


Whether Jesus Christ, or another David, or more than one type of Christ is the central character of these prophecies, all of them have yet to be fulfilled.  We should take care not to spiritualize them away.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no work called &#8220;Theodemocracy&#8221; under discussion here.  The New and Old Testaments, especially the latter, have references enough to the temporal establishment of the Kingdom of God in the last days, although modern revelation would be more than adequate if they did not.</p>
<blockquote><p>
 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.</p>
<p>  And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.</p>
<p>  For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.<br />
(Dan 10:14-17)</p>
<p>And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.</p>
<p>  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?</p>
<p>  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacobâ€™s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.</p>
<p>  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:</p>
<p>  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.<br />
(Jer 30:4-9)</p>
<p>Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.<br />
  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.</p>
<p>  Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;</p>
<p>  But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.<br />
(Jer 23:5-8)</p>
<p>And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.</p>
<p>  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.</p>
<p>  And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.<br />
(Isa 11:10-12)</p>
<p>And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:</p>
<p>    Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.<br />
(Zech 6:12-13)</p>
<p>For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?</p>
<p>  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.</p>
<p>  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:</p>
<p>  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.<br />
(Romans 11:25-27)
</p></blockquote>
<p>Whether Jesus Christ, or another David, or more than one type of Christ is the central character of these prophecies, all of them have yet to be fulfilled.  We should take care not to spiritualize them away.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: D. Cross</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/#comment-61852</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. Cross]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 05:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/theodemocracy/#comment-61852</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, and I forgot to point out the author obviously not read Hebrews (in the Bible by the way) otherwise the author would know where the reference to Kings and Queens, Priests and Priestesses in reference to the Priesthood comes from.  I&#039;m always facinated by people who don&#039;t do their homework.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and I forgot to point out the author obviously not read Hebrews (in the Bible by the way) otherwise the author would know where the reference to Kings and Queens, Priests and Priestesses in reference to the Priesthood comes from.  I&#8217;m always facinated by people who don&#8217;t do their homework.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: D. Cross</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/#comment-61851</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. Cross]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 05:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/theodemocracy/#comment-61851</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This work Theodemocracy seems to be an attempt at recreating the Davinci code effect.  The writer obviously understands little of Mormon history or prophecy. Also the writer seems to be ignorant of the Bible and Jesus&#039; statements about the Kingdom of God and the Roman government&#039;s anxiety over the subject.  Facinating stuff but unimportant in the greater scheme of things.  I&#039;m sure it will be widely published in anti-mormon circles where peope take anything they can find, accurate or not and publish it in the hopes of bolstering their own lagging faith.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This work Theodemocracy seems to be an attempt at recreating the Davinci code effect.  The writer obviously understands little of Mormon history or prophecy. Also the writer seems to be ignorant of the Bible and Jesus&#8217; statements about the Kingdom of God and the Roman government&#8217;s anxiety over the subject.  Facinating stuff but unimportant in the greater scheme of things.  I&#8217;m sure it will be widely published in anti-mormon circles where peope take anything they can find, accurate or not and publish it in the hopes of bolstering their own lagging faith.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/#comment-61850</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 07:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/theodemocracy/#comment-61850</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem with that treatment, Patriot, is that it rely&#039;s on the accounts of those not intimate with the workings of the Council and isn&#039;t particularly in harmony with the extant primary account we do have.  So, if you want one guy&#039;s projected vision of what he wants the council to be, that is great.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with that treatment, Patriot, is that it rely&#8217;s on the accounts of those not intimate with the workings of the Council and isn&#8217;t particularly in harmony with the extant primary account we do have.  So, if you want one guy&#8217;s projected vision of what he wants the council to be, that is great.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Patriot</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/#comment-61849</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patriot]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 06:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/theodemocracy/#comment-61849</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Duane S Crowtherâ€™s book â€œProphecyâ€, first published in 1962 has a very interesting chapter entitled â€œThe Establishment of the God.â€

Summary

When law, order, and government collapse in the Untied States, the Church will be compelled to establish a government to preserve peace in the in the Western United States.

This government will be known as the The Kingdom of God. A problem in terminology arises because of this political organization will be called the Kingdom of God. The early Church leaders taught that the government the Saints was to establish was to be apart from the Church.

That is to say, there are two Kingdoms of God. The first kingdom of God is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is Christâ€™s church on earth, often referred to as the kingdom of God on earth. And the second kingdom of God is the yet to be created and organized political Kingdom of God, which is not the LDS Church, rather, a new political party, an independent party which shall be officially called the Kingdom of God; a new government which will be base upon the US Constitution. This new US Constitution has already been written by Joseph Smith and is in the position of the Church.

Crowther outlines the chapter The Establishment of the Kingdom of God.

History

   1. The (political kingdom yet to be organized) was first organized by Joseph Smith shortly before his death.
   2. It was to be governed by a â€œGeneral Councilâ€ which was also called the â€œCouncil of Fifty.â€
   3. This organization played an important part in the Westward exodus of the Church, but became a source of antagonism to the non-members in the West and so it was discontinued by the Church.

Characteristics (When it is organized in the future.)

   1. The Kingdom of God will be led by a Council of Fifty. Some of them might not be Latter-day Saints.
   2. It will uphold the rights of men of all creeds and will be dedicated to rule justly.
   3. The Kingdom will be a theocracy.
   4. It will uphold the principles of the United States Constitution and be somewhat similar in method of operation to the present United States Government.
   5. In the Kingdom will be include people of all nations.

Future (The future will progress through three stages of growth.)

   1. The beginning stage-The Saints will be in the West (). Here the influence of the Kingdom will be relatively limited and unknown.
   2. The growth stage-During this period many of the Saints will journey from the West to establish the New Jerusalem. There the Kingdom of God will rise in power, not by waging war on other nations, but by being a standard of peace and lawfulness while other governments collapse through corruption and war.
   3. The world-ruling stage-This period will commence with the second coming of Christ and will take place during the Millennium.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duane S Crowtherâ€™s book â€œProphecyâ€, first published in 1962 has a very interesting chapter entitled â€œThe Establishment of the God.â€</p>
<p>Summary</p>
<p>When law, order, and government collapse in the Untied States, the Church will be compelled to establish a government to preserve peace in the in the Western United States.</p>
<p>This government will be known as the The Kingdom of God. A problem in terminology arises because of this political organization will be called the Kingdom of God. The early Church leaders taught that the government the Saints was to establish was to be apart from the Church.</p>
<p>That is to say, there are two Kingdoms of God. The first kingdom of God is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is Christâ€™s church on earth, often referred to as the kingdom of God on earth. And the second kingdom of God is the yet to be created and organized political Kingdom of God, which is not the LDS Church, rather, a new political party, an independent party which shall be officially called the Kingdom of God; a new government which will be base upon the US Constitution. This new US Constitution has already been written by Joseph Smith and is in the position of the Church.</p>
<p>Crowther outlines the chapter The Establishment of the Kingdom of God.</p>
<p>History</p>
<p>   1. The (political kingdom yet to be organized) was first organized by Joseph Smith shortly before his death.<br />
   2. It was to be governed by a â€œGeneral Councilâ€ which was also called the â€œCouncil of Fifty.â€<br />
   3. This organization played an important part in the Westward exodus of the Church, but became a source of antagonism to the non-members in the West and so it was discontinued by the Church.</p>
<p>Characteristics (When it is organized in the future.)</p>
<p>   1. The Kingdom of God will be led by a Council of Fifty. Some of them might not be Latter-day Saints.<br />
   2. It will uphold the rights of men of all creeds and will be dedicated to rule justly.<br />
   3. The Kingdom will be a theocracy.<br />
   4. It will uphold the principles of the United States Constitution and be somewhat similar in method of operation to the present United States Government.<br />
   5. In the Kingdom will be include people of all nations.</p>
<p>Future (The future will progress through three stages of growth.)</p>
<p>   1. The beginning stage-The Saints will be in the West (). Here the influence of the Kingdom will be relatively limited and unknown.<br />
   2. The growth stage-During this period many of the Saints will journey from the West to establish the New Jerusalem. There the Kingdom of God will rise in power, not by waging war on other nations, but by being a standard of peace and lawfulness while other governments collapse through corruption and war.<br />
   3. The world-ruling stage-This period will commence with the second coming of Christ and will take place during the Millennium.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/#comment-61848</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 23:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/theodemocracy/#comment-61848</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That is an interesting question Elisabeth...and I really don&#039;t know.  Joseph taught that in the millennium, Jesus wouldn&#039;t be governing full time, but that he would leave that up to the government.  What Joseph established as the council of Fifty really doesn&#039;t look all that democratic, and I think we are at a disadvantage by not have very many of his teachings on the topic.  The reality remains that any legislation had to be the will of the majority...which is democratic enough.  The thing is that memebers of the council, at least in Joseph&#039;s day, were not elected by the people.  But again, I suspect that there is a substantial disparity between what was tought about the future of the council and what was actually effectuated in the 19th century.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is an interesting question Elisabeth&#8230;and I really don&#8217;t know.  Joseph taught that in the millennium, Jesus wouldn&#8217;t be governing full time, but that he would leave that up to the government.  What Joseph established as the council of Fifty really doesn&#8217;t look all that democratic, and I think we are at a disadvantage by not have very many of his teachings on the topic.  The reality remains that any legislation had to be the will of the majority&#8230;which is democratic enough.  The thing is that memebers of the council, at least in Joseph&#8217;s day, were not elected by the people.  But again, I suspect that there is a substantial disparity between what was tought about the future of the council and what was actually effectuated in the 19th century.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Elisabeth</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/#comment-61847</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Elisabeth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 23:06:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/theodemocracy/#comment-61847</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a silly question, but I really don&#039;t understand what a theodemocracy is. Is it that the democratic procedures are divinely inspired so that the voters always elect the &quot;right&quot; leader? Or is it that the individual voters are divinely inspired to elect the right leader, and the voting mechanisms don&#039;t matter much? And is a theodemocracy a representative democracy?

I guess I&#039;m just not understanding why God would need to bother with democracy at all. There&#039;s not much that&#039;s &quot;democratic&quot; about the will of God.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a silly question, but I really don&#8217;t understand what a theodemocracy is. Is it that the democratic procedures are divinely inspired so that the voters always elect the &#8220;right&#8221; leader? Or is it that the individual voters are divinely inspired to elect the right leader, and the voting mechanisms don&#8217;t matter much? And is a theodemocracy a representative democracy?</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;m just not understanding why God would need to bother with democracy at all. There&#8217;s not much that&#8217;s &#8220;democratic&#8221; about the will of God.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Costanza</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/#comment-61846</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Costanza]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 22:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/theodemocracy/#comment-61846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ed, you are correct that Hill is open to criticism--I actually did argue with Hill&#039;s paradigm in my Ph.D. dissertation. You are also correct that any grand-narrative is highly susceptible to charges of reductionism. On another note, I have spoken with Hansen&#039;s brother, who is my stake clerk, and he has some very interesting stories to tell....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed, you are correct that Hill is open to criticism&#8211;I actually did argue with Hill&#8217;s paradigm in my Ph.D. dissertation. You are also correct that any grand-narrative is highly susceptible to charges of reductionism. On another note, I have spoken with Hansen&#8217;s brother, who is my stake clerk, and he has some very interesting stories to tell&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: cadams</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/16/theodemocracy/#comment-61845</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cadams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 21:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/theodemocracy/#comment-61845</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Think about this quote:

&quot;I go emphatically, virtuously, and humanely, for a THEODEMOCRACY, where God and the people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteousness. And where liberty, free trade, and sailorâ€™s rights, and the protection of life and property shall be maintained inviolate, for the benefit of ALL. To exalt mankind is nobly acting the part of a God; to degrade them, is meanly doing the drudgery of the devil. Unitas, libertas, caritas esto perpetua!
With the highest sentiments of regard for all men, I am an advocate of unadulterated freedom.&quot;

How inspiring is this political quote!  The smallest morsel of thought from Joseph can lead to a lifetime of contemplation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Think about this quote:</p>
<p>&#8220;I go emphatically, virtuously, and humanely, for a THEODEMOCRACY, where God and the people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteousness. And where liberty, free trade, and sailorâ€™s rights, and the protection of life and property shall be maintained inviolate, for the benefit of ALL. To exalt mankind is nobly acting the part of a God; to degrade them, is meanly doing the drudgery of the devil. Unitas, libertas, caritas esto perpetua!<br />
With the highest sentiments of regard for all men, I am an advocate of unadulterated freedom.&#8221;</p>
<p>How inspiring is this political quote!  The smallest morsel of thought from Joseph can lead to a lifetime of contemplation.</p>
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