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	<title>Comments on: The History of Pre-Heaven</title>
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		<title>By: April</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/02/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87199</link>
		<dc:creator>April</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>There actually seem to be quite a few references to premortal life in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Here is one I recently came across:

ECC  4: 2-3

Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.
Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.



It seems to me that this is a complaint that angels who have not been born yet into the evils of this world are better off than those who are living as mortals or those who have lived as mortals. Thus both premortal life and postmortal life are covered here ... as a complaint, really, but the complaint assumes a basic understanding of who we are, where we came from, and where we go.

Another interesting passage, which is more about postmortal life than premortal life is in Isaiah:

ISA  8: 19

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

This shows that God is the one who knows where the &quot;dead&quot; are ... and that they are actually still alive. It also subtly hints that you not only can ask God about people on another plane of existence besides the mortal one, but that you should do so. That no one is ever &quot;not-alive&quot; is also corroborated in Mark:


MAR  12: 27

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


It could be argued that since God is a God of the living, we were always living because God has always been God.

Here are more scriptures on premortal existence which you&#039;ve probably already explored:

JOB  38: 4

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.


ISA  40: 21

Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

ISA  51: 16

And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

This last one in Isaiah 51 indicates that Zion is the name for the Lord&#039;s people before they were born, back in the eternities ... those who followed him and wanted most to be with him ... in fact, those born on this planet ... before they were born on this planet. That means they were a people before the earth was founded ... ergo, premortal life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There actually seem to be quite a few references to premortal life in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Here is one I recently came across:</p>
<p>ECC  4: 2-3</p>
<p>Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.<br />
Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.</p>
<p>It seems to me that this is a complaint that angels who have not been born yet into the evils of this world are better off than those who are living as mortals or those who have lived as mortals. Thus both premortal life and postmortal life are covered here &#8230; as a complaint, really, but the complaint assumes a basic understanding of who we are, where we came from, and where we go.</p>
<p>Another interesting passage, which is more about postmortal life than premortal life is in Isaiah:</p>
<p>ISA  8: 19</p>
<p>And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?</p>
<p>This shows that God is the one who knows where the &#8220;dead&#8221; are &#8230; and that they are actually still alive. It also subtly hints that you not only can ask God about people on another plane of existence besides the mortal one, but that you should do so. That no one is ever &#8220;not-alive&#8221; is also corroborated in Mark:</p>
<p>MAR  12: 27</p>
<p>He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.</p>
<p>It could be argued that since God is a God of the living, we were always living because God has always been God.</p>
<p>Here are more scriptures on premortal existence which you&#8217;ve probably already explored:</p>
<p>JOB  38: 4</p>
<p>Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.</p>
<p>ISA  40: 21</p>
<p>Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?</p>
<p>ISA  51: 16</p>
<p>And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.</p>
<p>This last one in Isaiah 51 indicates that Zion is the name for the Lord&#8217;s people before they were born, back in the eternities &#8230; those who followed him and wanted most to be with him &#8230; in fact, those born on this planet &#8230; before they were born on this planet. That means they were a people before the earth was founded &#8230; ergo, premortal life.</p>
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		<title>By: Edje</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/02/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87198</link>
		<dc:creator>Edje</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87198</guid>
		<description>[Is this thread still open?...]

I am unclear about how wide a net you cast when you say: &quot;Where we also hope to go beyond conventional treatments of pre-mortality is in our examination of a variety of concepts that perform comparable intellectual work...&quot;.

For example, one of the ways I see LDS use pre-mortality myths is as a way to insulate themselves from unpleasant physical or social realities--by asserting that things should be a certain way because of a pre-existing (and &quot;therefore&quot; essential) identity. Thus, one might console oneself with the patriarchal blessing line, &quot;you were one of the noble ones&quot; (and by extension, still are) when they feel like--and are commonly regarded as--a loser; the group consoles itself similarly with the idea of being of pre-mortally righteous Israel.

The intellectual work of the PM myth in this (simplistic) case is to support/define a claim of essentialism. If I am accurate in this characterization, then it would seem anything that supports or defines a claim of essentialism would be doing &quot;comparable intellectual work.&quot; Thus, individuals who prefer same-gender sex who adopt a &quot;gay&quot; lifestyle provide a buffer between themselves--&quot;This is the way I am&quot; vs. &quot;This is what I do&quot;--and changing moral, social, and scientific arguments; they also provide a way for others who do not share their sexual predilections to deal with them--&quot;That is the way they are,&quot; etc. The gay identity myth serves a similar function as a pre-mortality myth in this case.

Along these same lines, I think the invention of childhood and its expansion of late to something near thirty years creates (together with genetic folklore) a mythic space similar to a pre-mortality myth in that gives us something to which we can attribute all subsequent attributes. I think this is at least partially a response to the ever-expanding social and biological determinism of modernity (and Enlightenment): as science identifies more and more correlations between physiology, experience, and behavior mythic childhood expands both to allow time for the experience and development and to allow room for otherwise unaccountable extra-biological behavior.

Is this (a portion of) the sort of analysis you are undertaking?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[Is this thread still open?...]</p>
<p>I am unclear about how wide a net you cast when you say: &#8220;Where we also hope to go beyond conventional treatments of pre-mortality is in our examination of a variety of concepts that perform comparable intellectual work&#8230;&#8221;.</p>
<p>For example, one of the ways I see LDS use pre-mortality myths is as a way to insulate themselves from unpleasant physical or social realities&#8211;by asserting that things should be a certain way because of a pre-existing (and &#8220;therefore&#8221; essential) identity. Thus, one might console oneself with the patriarchal blessing line, &#8220;you were one of the noble ones&#8221; (and by extension, still are) when they feel like&#8211;and are commonly regarded as&#8211;a loser; the group consoles itself similarly with the idea of being of pre-mortally righteous Israel.</p>
<p>The intellectual work of the PM myth in this (simplistic) case is to support/define a claim of essentialism. If I am accurate in this characterization, then it would seem anything that supports or defines a claim of essentialism would be doing &#8220;comparable intellectual work.&#8221; Thus, individuals who prefer same-gender sex who adopt a &#8220;gay&#8221; lifestyle provide a buffer between themselves&#8211;&#8221;This is the way I am&#8221; vs. &#8220;This is what I do&#8221;&#8211;and changing moral, social, and scientific arguments; they also provide a way for others who do not share their sexual predilections to deal with them&#8211;&#8221;That is the way they are,&#8221; etc. The gay identity myth serves a similar function as a pre-mortality myth in this case.</p>
<p>Along these same lines, I think the invention of childhood and its expansion of late to something near thirty years creates (together with genetic folklore) a mythic space similar to a pre-mortality myth in that gives us something to which we can attribute all subsequent attributes. I think this is at least partially a response to the ever-expanding social and biological determinism of modernity (and Enlightenment): as science identifies more and more correlations between physiology, experience, and behavior mythic childhood expands both to allow time for the experience and development and to allow room for otherwise unaccountable extra-biological behavior.</p>
<p>Is this (a portion of) the sort of analysis you are undertaking?</p>
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		<title>By: Patriot</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/02/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87197</link>
		<dc:creator>Patriot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 21:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87197</guid>
		<description>Great topic!

I&#039;d like to know if you are going to address the idea of rank, i.e., great and noble and less great and noble per se as well as how pre-heaven effects mortality.

And will the War in Heaven be discussed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great topic!</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to know if you are going to address the idea of rank, i.e., great and noble and less great and noble per se as well as how pre-heaven effects mortality.</p>
<p>And will the War in Heaven be discussed?</p>
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		<title>By: larryco_</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/02/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87196</link>
		<dc:creator>larryco_</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87196</guid>
		<description>Excellent Idea.  Don&#039;t forget to include writings of the early church fathers, particulary Justin and his take on premortal existence and the eternal nature of matter (in regard to forming the earth).  Also, you might want to contact Roger Cook at BYU, who has written a wonderful paper on premortal councils in heaven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent Idea.  Don&#8217;t forget to include writings of the early church fathers, particulary Justin and his take on premortal existence and the eternal nature of matter (in regard to forming the earth).  Also, you might want to contact Roger Cook at BYU, who has written a wonderful paper on premortal councils in heaven.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/02/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87195</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87195</guid>
		<description>Good luck and God bless, I think this is a vitally important concept.  It has always spoken truth to me.  I&#039;m not a &quot;know&quot; kind of person, but I believe this totally.  A good thing you&#039;re doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good luck and God bless, I think this is a vitally important concept.  It has always spoken truth to me.  I&#8217;m not a &#8220;know&#8221; kind of person, but I believe this totally.  A good thing you&#8217;re doing.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/02/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87194</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 06:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Geoff,

I can&#039;t believe anyone would want to go through puberty more than once:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff,</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t believe anyone would want to go through puberty more than once:)</p>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/02/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87193</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 06:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Terryl,

I am posting this quotation from Proverbs Chapter 8 that I read a couple of weeks ago for all to ponder. There are not too many passages of scripture that talk much about the preexistance but this is one of the best.

(Old Testament &#124; Proverbs 8:22 - 31)
22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24  When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25  Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26  While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27  When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28  When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29  When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30  Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31  Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terryl,</p>
<p>I am posting this quotation from Proverbs Chapter 8 that I read a couple of weeks ago for all to ponder. There are not too many passages of scripture that talk much about the preexistance but this is one of the best.</p>
<p>(Old Testament | Proverbs 8:22 &#8211; 31)<br />
22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.<br />
23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.<br />
24  When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.<br />
25  Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:<br />
26  While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.<br />
27  When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:<br />
28  When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:<br />
29  When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:<br />
30  Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;<br />
31  Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/02/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87192</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 06:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree that would be an interesting discussion Darren, but many prominent Mormons (including Heber C. Kimball) reportedly believed that this life is just another in a long series of mortal probations on the path of eternal progression/retrogression so I think the MMP subject would be an excellent fit for a survey of pre-mortal existence concepts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that would be an interesting discussion Darren, but many prominent Mormons (including Heber C. Kimball) reportedly believed that this life is just another in a long series of mortal probations on the path of eternal progression/retrogression so I think the MMP subject would be an excellent fit for a survey of pre-mortal existence concepts.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/02/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87191</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 06:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Geoff J, I think your multiple mortal probation idea may be better suited to a discussion on what the second death is, what outer darkness is, and what the ultimate fate of the sons of perdition could be.

I believe that Heber C. Kimball, Brigham Young and George A. Smith elude to that in parts of the Journal of Discourses.

One quote of interest is from George A. Smith that reads

&quot;The clay that was marred in the potter&#039;s hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman  ... they will be thrown back to the native element from which they orginated, to be worked over again and be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom&quot; Journal of Discourses 2:24

Could not reincarnation be a false doctirne related to the &quot;reworking&quot; of the spirits of those sons and daughters of perdition after their second death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff J, I think your multiple mortal probation idea may be better suited to a discussion on what the second death is, what outer darkness is, and what the ultimate fate of the sons of perdition could be.</p>
<p>I believe that Heber C. Kimball, Brigham Young and George A. Smith elude to that in parts of the Journal of Discourses.</p>
<p>One quote of interest is from George A. Smith that reads</p>
<p>&#8220;The clay that was marred in the potter&#8217;s hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman  &#8230; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they orginated, to be worked over again and be prepared to enjoy some sort of kingdom&#8221; Journal of Discourses 2:24</p>
<p>Could not reincarnation be a false doctirne related to the &#8220;reworking&#8221; of the spirits of those sons and daughters of perdition after their second death.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/02/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87190</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/the-history-of-pre-heaven/#comment-87190</guid>
		<description>I hope you get a chance to investigate and discuss my favorite obscure Mormon idea that is related to our existence prior to this earth -- &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/category/eternal-progression/mmp/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;multiple mortal probations&lt;/a&gt;.  The concept is often confused with reincarnation and I&#039;m wondering if there is a premortal doctrine in some of the Eastern religions that teach reincarnation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope you get a chance to investigate and discuss my favorite obscure Mormon idea that is related to our existence prior to this earth &#8212; <a href="http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/category/eternal-progression/mmp/" rel="nofollow">multiple mortal probations</a>.  The concept is often confused with reincarnation and I&#8217;m wondering if there is a premortal doctrine in some of the Eastern religions that teach reincarnation.</p>
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