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	<title>Comments on: A Camel through the Eye of a Needle</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17751</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seth R.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17751</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lamonte,

The question of whether it&#039;s theoretically possible for the well-off to attain the Celestial Kingdom is not that interesting to me because it seems pretty obvious that it is possible. Most people like to distance this issue from themselves by intellectualizing the whole thing, showing how much good rich people do, what righteous people they are, and maybe giving a few scriptural or real-life examples.

But this misses the point. The question in Gospel Doctrine should not be &quot;does wealth corrupt?&quot;

The question should be &quot;Has it corrupted you?&quot;

When this question is asked, the listener is denied all the stock Mormon answers. No more intellectualizing, no more dry hypotheticals, no more remote annecdotes.

Is wealth a good thing?

Who cares!

Is it a good thing for YOU? Is it a good thing for me? That&#039;s what I&#039;m after.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lamonte,</p>
<p>The question of whether it&#8217;s theoretically possible for the well-off to attain the Celestial Kingdom is not that interesting to me because it seems pretty obvious that it is possible. Most people like to distance this issue from themselves by intellectualizing the whole thing, showing how much good rich people do, what righteous people they are, and maybe giving a few scriptural or real-life examples.</p>
<p>But this misses the point. The question in Gospel Doctrine should not be &#8220;does wealth corrupt?&#8221;</p>
<p>The question should be &#8220;Has it corrupted you?&#8221;</p>
<p>When this question is asked, the listener is denied all the stock Mormon answers. No more intellectualizing, no more dry hypotheticals, no more remote annecdotes.</p>
<p>Is wealth a good thing?</p>
<p>Who cares!</p>
<p>Is it a good thing for YOU? Is it a good thing for me? That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m after.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen M (Ethesis)</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17750</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen M (Ethesis)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Apr 2006 03:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17750</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I thought I&#039;d add that part of the &quot;who then can be saved&quot; question is the presupposition that the rich are beloved of God and surely they, of all people, are going to be saved.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought I&#8217;d add that part of the &#8220;who then can be saved&#8221; question is the presupposition that the rich are beloved of God and surely they, of all people, are going to be saved.</p>
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		<title>By: cchrissyy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17749</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cchrissyy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17749</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I understand living frugally and conserving brings savings. If you choose to *keep* the savings for yourself, rather than *passing it on* to those who need it now, that&#039;s hoarding. It&#039;s selfish. It&#039;s the oposite of giving all you have to building up Zion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand living frugally and conserving brings savings. If you choose to *keep* the savings for yourself, rather than *passing it on* to those who need it now, that&#8217;s hoarding. It&#8217;s selfish. It&#8217;s the oposite of giving all you have to building up Zion.</p>
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		<title>By: Lamonte</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17748</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lamonte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#24 Jared E - for the record, I served as bishop and I live in a townhouse.  The fact that I live in suburban Washington DC means that it is worth more than many more ostentatious houses in other cities where real estate is less valuable but among the houses here in Northern Virginia it is quite modest.

I will tell that for a portion of my life I found it hard to pay tithing.  I lived in much more humble circumstances at that time.  But since I have become a full tithe payer I have been blessed with greater wealth.  I know it&#039;s a cliche in the church to point out such a fact but it&#039;s still hard for me to understand that, as quoted by a firend of mine, &quot;90% of X is greater than X.&quot;  Maybe that accounts for your perception of the living quarters of stake presidents and bishops.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#24 Jared E &#8211; for the record, I served as bishop and I live in a townhouse.  The fact that I live in suburban Washington DC means that it is worth more than many more ostentatious houses in other cities where real estate is less valuable but among the houses here in Northern Virginia it is quite modest.</p>
<p>I will tell that for a portion of my life I found it hard to pay tithing.  I lived in much more humble circumstances at that time.  But since I have become a full tithe payer I have been blessed with greater wealth.  I know it&#8217;s a cliche in the church to point out such a fact but it&#8217;s still hard for me to understand that, as quoted by a firend of mine, &#8220;90% of X is greater than X.&#8221;  Maybe that accounts for your perception of the living quarters of stake presidents and bishops.</p>
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		<title>By: Amri Brown</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Amri Brown]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#19 Theologically, you&#039;re right. God knows the intents of our heart. He judges on those and you can have money and have good intentions. I have a problem with the continued exposure over time.

I think every American to some degree is addicted to money, wealth, spending whatever you want to call it. Say I am a porn addict or alcoholic or drug addict but am a very good person with earnest intentions, a love of God, and other people but simply have an addiction. If I were to hang out on a computer all day with full access to any porn I wanted, spend all my time with alcoholics or use my time making meth one would reasonably assume that to be a bad idea. Why?  I am a good person with good intentions and God knows the contents of my heart.
Money is the same to me. I think a lot of it over a long time changes a person. The further we get away from it the better. I also think you can live on very little and still save for your future.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#19 Theologically, you&#8217;re right. God knows the intents of our heart. He judges on those and you can have money and have good intentions. I have a problem with the continued exposure over time.</p>
<p>I think every American to some degree is addicted to money, wealth, spending whatever you want to call it. Say I am a porn addict or alcoholic or drug addict but am a very good person with earnest intentions, a love of God, and other people but simply have an addiction. If I were to hang out on a computer all day with full access to any porn I wanted, spend all my time with alcoholics or use my time making meth one would reasonably assume that to be a bad idea. Why?  I am a good person with good intentions and God knows the contents of my heart.<br />
Money is the same to me. I think a lot of it over a long time changes a person. The further we get away from it the better. I also think you can live on very little and still save for your future.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared E.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17746</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jared E.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have a comment and a question, first the comment.

The Book of Mormon seems to suggest that the way to deal with wealth is to acquire it, and then use it to bless the poor. If being rich was inherently evil, why would the Lord continue to bless the Nephites with it? I would add though, that if this is in fact how riches are to be viewed, mormons as a whole are doing a miserable job. Sure the Church helps those in need with fast offerings, but when was the last time the average church member was involved in easing the suffering of the poor?

Now the question...

Why does it seem that every stake president and many of the bishops I&#039;ve known live in huge ostentatious houses?

(I guess there are three questions in this post, but the first two are rhetorical, so they donâ€™t count.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a comment and a question, first the comment.</p>
<p>The Book of Mormon seems to suggest that the way to deal with wealth is to acquire it, and then use it to bless the poor. If being rich was inherently evil, why would the Lord continue to bless the Nephites with it? I would add though, that if this is in fact how riches are to be viewed, mormons as a whole are doing a miserable job. Sure the Church helps those in need with fast offerings, but when was the last time the average church member was involved in easing the suffering of the poor?</p>
<p>Now the question&#8230;</p>
<p>Why does it seem that every stake president and many of the bishops I&#8217;ve known live in huge ostentatious houses?</p>
<p>(I guess there are three questions in this post, but the first two are rhetorical, so they donâ€™t count.)</p>
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		<title>By: ed</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17745</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ed]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Apr 2006 15:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17745</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cchrissyy,

If you have a big bank account, it doesn&#039;t mean that you &quot;hoarded&quot; resources.  Quite the contrary, it means that you chose &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; to consume resources, even though you had the opportunity to do so.  It is quite possible to go through life living very frugally (living in a small house, eating inexpensive food, wearing old clothes) and end up with a very big bank account.  This behavior leaves more of the nice clothes, food, and housing for other people to consume.  If you want to find people using more than their share of resources, you should look at what they &lt;em&gt;consume&lt;/em&gt;, not what they &lt;em&gt;invest&lt;/em&gt;.

What happens to your financial savings when you die is another question...should you leave it to your kids, donate it to charity, or what?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cchrissyy,</p>
<p>If you have a big bank account, it doesn&#8217;t mean that you &#8220;hoarded&#8221; resources.  Quite the contrary, it means that you chose <em>not</em> to consume resources, even though you had the opportunity to do so.  It is quite possible to go through life living very frugally (living in a small house, eating inexpensive food, wearing old clothes) and end up with a very big bank account.  This behavior leaves more of the nice clothes, food, and housing for other people to consume.  If you want to find people using more than their share of resources, you should look at what they <em>consume</em>, not what they <em>invest</em>.</p>
<p>What happens to your financial savings when you die is another question&#8230;should you leave it to your kids, donate it to charity, or what?</p>
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		<title>By: black francis</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17744</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[black francis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Apr 2006 05:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I certainly agree that money easily corrupts people and institutions. However, there are good reasons for dying with substantial savings stashed away. I see no evil in having a desire to pass a significant income on to one&#039;s progeny or to ensure that you have more than enough money to cover a realistically comfortable retirement. You&#039;d be nuts not to plan to have much more than enough.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly agree that money easily corrupts people and institutions. However, there are good reasons for dying with substantial savings stashed away. I see no evil in having a desire to pass a significant income on to one&#8217;s progeny or to ensure that you have more than enough money to cover a realistically comfortable retirement. You&#8217;d be nuts not to plan to have much more than enough.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: cchrissyy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17743</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cchrissyy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lamonte,
While the heart matters most, I must agree with hugh Nibley, that if a person lives and dies rich, their bank account is a relavent judgement against them- they kept more than they needed, they hoarded resources that were meant to be shared.
You can&#039;t promise &quot;all with which the Lord may bless you&quot; to Him, and then keep it for your own rainy day. Nibley wrote that a person who keeps more than they need is coveting and stealing from the poor, who we are repeatedly commanded to give to.

I think a fat bank account shows a heart insufficently concerned with our brothers&#039; welfare, therefore lacking in obediance to scripture and covenants, and also lacking in love and charity. And without these, how could we bear to enter heaven?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lamonte,<br />
While the heart matters most, I must agree with hugh Nibley, that if a person lives and dies rich, their bank account is a relavent judgement against them- they kept more than they needed, they hoarded resources that were meant to be shared.<br />
You can&#8217;t promise &#8220;all with which the Lord may bless you&#8221; to Him, and then keep it for your own rainy day. Nibley wrote that a person who keeps more than they need is coveting and stealing from the poor, who we are repeatedly commanded to give to.</p>
<p>I think a fat bank account shows a heart insufficently concerned with our brothers&#8217; welfare, therefore lacking in obediance to scripture and covenants, and also lacking in love and charity. And without these, how could we bear to enter heaven?</p>
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		<title>By: Lamonte</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/07/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17742</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lamonte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/04/a-camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle/#comment-17742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK DavidH - you got me.  I see from your comments on T&amp;S that you are the sarcastic one.  I&#039;m old and slow today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK DavidH &#8211; you got me.  I see from your comments on T&amp;S that you are the sarcastic one.  I&#8217;m old and slow today.</p>
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