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	<title>Comments on: Doctrinal Question</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/#comment-32292</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Butler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/doctrinal-question/#comment-32292</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A couple definitions:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for &lt;em&gt;sin is the transgression of the law&lt;/em&gt;
(1 John 3:4)

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin
(James 4:17)
&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple definitions:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for <em>sin is the transgression of the law</em><br />
(1 John 3:4)</p>
<p>Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin<br />
(James 4:17)
</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob Caswell</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/#comment-32291</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Caswell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jul 2006 03:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/doctrinal-question/#comment-32291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m with Dave on this one. There can be a significant difference between mistakes and sins (even if quite a bit of overlap can just as easily exist). And even then, there are other deeds that may not be so easily classified by using either &quot;mistake&quot; or &quot;sin.&quot; But using &quot;sin&quot; as the all encompassing &quot;everything thatâ€™s wrong&quot; word just dilutes it into meaningless blabber (for me, anyway).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Dave on this one. There can be a significant difference between mistakes and sins (even if quite a bit of overlap can just as easily exist). And even then, there are other deeds that may not be so easily classified by using either &#8220;mistake&#8221; or &#8220;sin.&#8221; But using &#8220;sin&#8221; as the all encompassing &#8220;everything thatâ€™s wrong&#8221; word just dilutes it into meaningless blabber (for me, anyway).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/#comment-32290</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[annegb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jul 2006 13:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/doctrinal-question/#comment-32290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ya got me.  There is a pornographic element to the descriptions of sex in some of those novels.  But they don&#039;t come close to that magazine I saw.

Women are hungry for romance, not sex.  Well, IMHO.  I&#039;m hungry for biscuits and gravy these days.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ya got me.  There is a pornographic element to the descriptions of sex in some of those novels.  But they don&#8217;t come close to that magazine I saw.</p>
<p>Women are hungry for romance, not sex.  Well, IMHO.  I&#8217;m hungry for biscuits and gravy these days.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: happysundays</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/#comment-32289</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[happysundays]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jul 2006 06:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/doctrinal-question/#comment-32289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s the most intelligent thing I&#039;ve ever read about Mormons and pornography. I don&#039;t know the actual identity of the person who posted it, but I&#039;ll provide a link to the thread at the bottom:


&quot;I have come to believe that sexuality is a core issue in our humanity. It is not just a nicety or a way to propagate. Understanding it and using it appropriately is essential IMO to living fully and well. When it is misunderstood a man cannot understand the feelings associated with it and misuses the masculine energy that otherwise can be used to bless the lives of those around us. To use it properly would mean

&quot;1. Understanding the feelings associated with arousal and eroticism. I believe that what I have felt throughout my life is the need to be in balance; to bond with feminine energy in a way designed to be a blessing. Growing up in the church I was taught that these feelings were of the devil and were meant to be ignored or controlled. The more of them a male feels the more shame is heaped on him because he then interprets the feelings to mean that he is &quot;tempted&quot; and if he does not &quot;succesfully&quot; resist this temptation he will feel awful shame.

&quot;2. Once understood the boy/man needs guidance to know what the balance means and the ways to acheive it that will truly bless lives. In therapy I have dealt with many boys growing through the hormonal stages and needing to understand about balance. When all around us teaches that these feelings mean he wants sex he responds by wanting sex. If we give the guidance needed the boy can know how to seek balance by associating with females in open, honest ways. As a boy I did not receive any of this type guidance. All I was taught was that it was a shameful thing to feel and even more shameful to act on. Acting on it is almost automatic with boys. Wet dreams, masturbation the incredible fascination with anything feminine; these things are well known to most males. That is why there are so many jokes about boys and lingerie catalogs. Since acting on it is so common and automatic (virtually) the shame is inevitable. When the shame sets in boys have to hide their true self even from themself. This makes the open and honest bonding that leads to balance even more difficult; and the downward spiral begins.

&quot;3. When a boy/man does act on his feelings he needs further guidance to understand what happened and why. He needs an open, loving, accepting atmosphere in which to tell his story and be guided by wise men. Since there are no wise men in moland this becomes impossible and so the boy has to hide all his experience and cannot learn from it. If he does talk about it, it will often be to a bishop who most often just counsels him to stay away from anything that may &quot;tempt&quot; him to get involved in &quot;wickedness&quot; again. This further leads to shame of the feelings and hiding from self because there is no way to stay away from feminine energy. AND, the more he stays away the more out of balance he is; more downward spiral. Feminine energy begins to be seen as the enemy, males fear it and automatically want to dominate it. The church gives him plenty of opportunity to dominate feminine energy. When dominating the feminine energy he cannot bond with it in a way that give balance and down and down it goes.

&quot;4. With proper guidance a man can learn that balance is acheived by beholding the divine feminine in a way that is equal, respectful and worshipful. When that is done there is no desire to dominate the feminine because he will know that that will cheat him of the balance he needs.
When the males around him (priesthood quorums) just continue the indoctrination, shame, confusion and lack of wisdom there is no way out of the downward spiral. Men wander around out of balance, dominating (or attempting to dominate) anything that scares them and without the balance of the divine feminine they rape--rape women, rape the environment, rape other people&#039;s savings, rape other people&#039;s dignity, etc. etc. etc.&quot;

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=617]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the most intelligent thing I&#8217;ve ever read about Mormons and pornography. I don&#8217;t know the actual identity of the person who posted it, but I&#8217;ll provide a link to the thread at the bottom:</p>
<p>&#8220;I have come to believe that sexuality is a core issue in our humanity. It is not just a nicety or a way to propagate. Understanding it and using it appropriately is essential IMO to living fully and well. When it is misunderstood a man cannot understand the feelings associated with it and misuses the masculine energy that otherwise can be used to bless the lives of those around us. To use it properly would mean</p>
<p>&#8220;1. Understanding the feelings associated with arousal and eroticism. I believe that what I have felt throughout my life is the need to be in balance; to bond with feminine energy in a way designed to be a blessing. Growing up in the church I was taught that these feelings were of the devil and were meant to be ignored or controlled. The more of them a male feels the more shame is heaped on him because he then interprets the feelings to mean that he is &#8220;tempted&#8221; and if he does not &#8220;succesfully&#8221; resist this temptation he will feel awful shame.</p>
<p>&#8220;2. Once understood the boy/man needs guidance to know what the balance means and the ways to acheive it that will truly bless lives. In therapy I have dealt with many boys growing through the hormonal stages and needing to understand about balance. When all around us teaches that these feelings mean he wants sex he responds by wanting sex. If we give the guidance needed the boy can know how to seek balance by associating with females in open, honest ways. As a boy I did not receive any of this type guidance. All I was taught was that it was a shameful thing to feel and even more shameful to act on. Acting on it is almost automatic with boys. Wet dreams, masturbation the incredible fascination with anything feminine; these things are well known to most males. That is why there are so many jokes about boys and lingerie catalogs. Since acting on it is so common and automatic (virtually) the shame is inevitable. When the shame sets in boys have to hide their true self even from themself. This makes the open and honest bonding that leads to balance even more difficult; and the downward spiral begins.</p>
<p>&#8220;3. When a boy/man does act on his feelings he needs further guidance to understand what happened and why. He needs an open, loving, accepting atmosphere in which to tell his story and be guided by wise men. Since there are no wise men in moland this becomes impossible and so the boy has to hide all his experience and cannot learn from it. If he does talk about it, it will often be to a bishop who most often just counsels him to stay away from anything that may &#8220;tempt&#8221; him to get involved in &#8220;wickedness&#8221; again. This further leads to shame of the feelings and hiding from self because there is no way to stay away from feminine energy. AND, the more he stays away the more out of balance he is; more downward spiral. Feminine energy begins to be seen as the enemy, males fear it and automatically want to dominate it. The church gives him plenty of opportunity to dominate feminine energy. When dominating the feminine energy he cannot bond with it in a way that give balance and down and down it goes.</p>
<p>&#8220;4. With proper guidance a man can learn that balance is acheived by beholding the divine feminine in a way that is equal, respectful and worshipful. When that is done there is no desire to dominate the feminine because he will know that that will cheat him of the balance he needs.<br />
When the males around him (priesthood quorums) just continue the indoctrination, shame, confusion and lack of wisdom there is no way out of the downward spiral. Men wander around out of balance, dominating (or attempting to dominate) anything that scares them and without the balance of the divine feminine they rape&#8211;rape women, rape the environment, rape other people&#8217;s savings, rape other people&#8217;s dignity, etc. etc. etc.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=617" rel="nofollow">http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=617</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Costanza</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/#comment-32288</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Costanza]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/doctrinal-question/#comment-32288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Slight burns Kaimi? I won&#039;t ask where.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slight burns Kaimi? I won&#8217;t ask where.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/#comment-32287</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Butler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/doctrinal-question/#comment-32287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jared E, the sources I checked from Joseph F. Smith onward all have an expansive definition of the Law of Chastity.  I quoted Ezra Taft Benson&#039;s definition in #112.

The current version of Gospel Principles has:

&quot;We have been taught that the law of chastity encompasses more than sexual intercourse. Elder Spencer W. Kimball warned young people of other sexual sins:

&#039;among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions--all ugly sins--but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions&#039;(The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 65).&quot;

Growing up in the Church, I have (generally) always understood these kind of things, including masturbation, to be violations of the Law of Chastity.

I have never heard pornography referred to as such a violation, but rather as separate category related to impure thoughts and lust inducing books, movies, television, etc.  The language is ambiguous enough as it is.  I could see considering pornography perusal for a married person to be a violation of the Law of Fidelity, but it sounds a little odd to consider it a violation of the Law of Chastity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jared E, the sources I checked from Joseph F. Smith onward all have an expansive definition of the Law of Chastity.  I quoted Ezra Taft Benson&#8217;s definition in #112.</p>
<p>The current version of Gospel Principles has:</p>
<p>&#8220;We have been taught that the law of chastity encompasses more than sexual intercourse. Elder Spencer W. Kimball warned young people of other sexual sins:</p>
<p>&#8216;among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions&#8211;all ugly sins&#8211;but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions&#8217;(The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 65).&#8221;</p>
<p>Growing up in the Church, I have (generally) always understood these kind of things, including masturbation, to be violations of the Law of Chastity.</p>
<p>I have never heard pornography referred to as such a violation, but rather as separate category related to impure thoughts and lust inducing books, movies, television, etc.  The language is ambiguous enough as it is.  I could see considering pornography perusal for a married person to be a violation of the Law of Fidelity, but it sounds a little odd to consider it a violation of the Law of Chastity.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/#comment-32286</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/doctrinal-question/#comment-32286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[p.s. I think I just barfed in my mouth a little thanks to you two.  It&#039;s called TMI for a REASON.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p.s. I think I just barfed in my mouth a little thanks to you two.  It&#8217;s called TMI for a REASON.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/#comment-32285</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/doctrinal-question/#comment-32285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[D., Mardell&#039;s right.  The answer really is no.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D., Mardell&#8217;s right.  The answer really is no.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mardell</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/#comment-32284</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mardell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/doctrinal-question/#comment-32284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If I have told you once I have told you a hundred times, dear.  The answer is no.  N-O.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I have told you once I have told you a hundred times, dear.  The answer is no.  N-O.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kaimi</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/27/doctrinal-question/#comment-32283</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kaimi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/doctrinal-question/#comment-32283</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I asked Mardell what she thought of your question, D.  And then she threw the frying pan at me.  (I only sustained slight burns from the bacon she was cooking.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I asked Mardell what she thought of your question, D.  And then she threw the frying pan at me.  (I only sustained slight burns from the bacon she was cooking.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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