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	<title>Comments on: Oaks on Gays</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68723</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 20:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68723</guid>
		<description>&quot;such a characterization isnâ€™t necessarily the most relevant or helpful one&quot;

There&#039;s no use pretending that anyone can come up with a neutral analogy for homosexuality but given that, I think you should actually do the legwork to refute the notion instead of just writing it off as inflammatory.  Sure, in this environment, it is inflammatory, but that doesn&#039;t mean it is wrong.  Tell us why you think it is wrong.  I think it is very useful, if unpopular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;such a characterization isnâ€™t necessarily the most relevant or helpful one&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no use pretending that anyone can come up with a neutral analogy for homosexuality but given that, I think you should actually do the legwork to refute the notion instead of just writing it off as inflammatory.  Sure, in this environment, it is inflammatory, but that doesn&#8217;t mean it is wrong.  Tell us why you think it is wrong.  I think it is very useful, if unpopular.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68722</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 20:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68722</guid>
		<description>Steve, this characterization is relevant and necessary to refute Steven B&#039;s claim that it&#039;s wrong for the church to view homosexuality as a burden and not merely &quot;diversity.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, this characterization is relevant and necessary to refute Steven B&#8217;s claim that it&#8217;s wrong for the church to view homosexuality as a burden and not merely &#8220;diversity.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68721</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 18:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68721</guid>
		<description>Matt, I&#039;m not really arguing against your bio/medical framework, I&#039;m just saying that even if within such a view you can view homosexuality as a &quot;medical condition,&quot; such a characterization isn&#039;t necessarily the most relevant or helpful one.  It does, however, seem to be one of the more inflammatory ones, which is why you prolly used it.... (grin).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, I&#8217;m not really arguing against your bio/medical framework, I&#8217;m just saying that even if within such a view you can view homosexuality as a &#8220;medical condition,&#8221; such a characterization isn&#8217;t necessarily the most relevant or helpful one.  It does, however, seem to be one of the more inflammatory ones, which is why you prolly used it&#8230;. (grin).</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68720</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 18:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68720</guid>
		<description>Steve, it&#039;s good to be back!

I agree there&#039;s more to sexuality than reproduction, just as there&#039;s more to eating than nutrition.  That fact doesn&#039;t  change the biological purpose of sex or eating, however, or mean that conditions that impair reproduction or nutrient absorption aren&#039;t medical conditions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, it&#8217;s good to be back!</p>
<p>I agree there&#8217;s more to sexuality than reproduction, just as there&#8217;s more to eating than nutrition.  That fact doesn&#8217;t  change the biological purpose of sex or eating, however, or mean that conditions that impair reproduction or nutrient absorption aren&#8217;t medical conditions.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68719</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 17:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68719</guid>
		<description>&quot;Homosexuality reduces the likelihood of reproductive success and, like other conditions that hinder reproductive success (infertility, endometreosis, PED, etc.), is necessarily considered a disorder.&quot;

Welcome back to the land of the living, Matt!  Good to see you&#039;re still kicking it, old-skool.  Of course you realize that characterizing homosexuality as a disorder is far from a neutral or inoffensive thing, and no doubt you did so deliberately.  I guess the characterization is correct if the proper framework for evaluating sexuality is through the (narrow) lens of reproductive potential.  There&#039;s a claim to be made in that respect, but I suspect you&#039;d agree that there&#039;s a lot more to human sexuality than propogation of the species, and it&#039;s this &quot;everything else&quot; bit (such as interpersonal relationships and other such minutiae) that matters so much to many.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Homosexuality reduces the likelihood of reproductive success and, like other conditions that hinder reproductive success (infertility, endometreosis, PED, etc.), is necessarily considered a disorder.&#8221;</p>
<p>Welcome back to the land of the living, Matt!  Good to see you&#8217;re still kicking it, old-skool.  Of course you realize that characterizing homosexuality as a disorder is far from a neutral or inoffensive thing, and no doubt you did so deliberately.  I guess the characterization is correct if the proper framework for evaluating sexuality is through the (narrow) lens of reproductive potential.  There&#8217;s a claim to be made in that respect, but I suspect you&#8217;d agree that there&#8217;s a lot more to human sexuality than propogation of the species, and it&#8217;s this &#8220;everything else&#8221; bit (such as interpersonal relationships and other such minutiae) that matters so much to many.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68718</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 16:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68718</guid>
		<description>Steven B wrote (#181): &lt;i&gt;&quot;[according to the church], homosexuality, of course, is NOT to be considered &#039;diversity,&#039; but an aberration, a burden to be carried.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Homosexuality reduces the likelihood of reproductive success and, like other conditions that hinder reproductive success (infertility, endometreosis, PED, etc.), is necessarily considered a disorder.  Though many homosexuals identify strongly with their condition, like deaf persons, homosexuality, like deafness, is properly considered a disorder even if the person desires no treatment.

Several commenters suggested that the church opposes committed celibate same-sex relationships but that is contrary to fact.  Many of us grew up in wards where women living together and caring for one another were active and comfortable in church.  And while I didn&#039;t personally know any situations like these involving men, there would surely exist life-long male roommates somewhere who do the same thing.  I do think it obvious, however, that church leaders would discourage unmarried couples who are sexually attracted to each another from living together.  A heterosexual man whose wife was in a medical center for years would be discouraged from living with another woman, even if they promised celibacy, if the leader assumes they are sexually attracted to each other.  (Exceptions to living with, for example, his mother or daughter because sexual attraction not assumed.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven B wrote (#181): <i>&#8220;[according to the church], homosexuality, of course, is NOT to be considered &#8216;diversity,&#8217; but an aberration, a burden to be carried.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Homosexuality reduces the likelihood of reproductive success and, like other conditions that hinder reproductive success (infertility, endometreosis, PED, etc.), is necessarily considered a disorder.  Though many homosexuals identify strongly with their condition, like deaf persons, homosexuality, like deafness, is properly considered a disorder even if the person desires no treatment.</p>
<p>Several commenters suggested that the church opposes committed celibate same-sex relationships but that is contrary to fact.  Many of us grew up in wards where women living together and caring for one another were active and comfortable in church.  And while I didn&#8217;t personally know any situations like these involving men, there would surely exist life-long male roommates somewhere who do the same thing.  I do think it obvious, however, that church leaders would discourage unmarried couples who are sexually attracted to each another from living together.  A heterosexual man whose wife was in a medical center for years would be discouraged from living with another woman, even if they promised celibacy, if the leader assumes they are sexually attracted to each other.  (Exceptions to living with, for example, his mother or daughter because sexual attraction not assumed.)</p>
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		<title>By: Sherpa</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68717</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherpa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 18:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68717</guid>
		<description>Thanks D. Fletcher for your comment.  I was really touched by it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks D. Fletcher for your comment.  I was really touched by it.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunstone Blog - Mormon culture, thought, and experience</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68716</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunstone Blog - Mormon culture, thought, and experience</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68716</guid>
		<description>[...] For those of you who have a life, you might not have noticed that the &#8220;Bloggernacleâ€™s&#8221; collective heart rate was recently set aflutter by a candid interview with Elder Dallin H. Oaks, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and Elder Lance B. Wickman, a member of the Seventy, on the subject of Same Sex Attraction (SSA).Â  Two of the Bloggernacleâ€™s tent pole institutions, Millennial Star and By Common Consent, eagerly tackled the subject and logged a whopping 445 and 221 comments respectively.Â  Like Ether at the end of the final Jaredite battle, I â€œgo forthâ€ (Ether 15:33) onto the now silent battlefield to wade through the carnage&#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] For those of you who have a life, you might not have noticed that the &#8220;Bloggernacleâ€™s&#8221; collective heart rate was recently set aflutter by a candid interview with Elder Dallin H. Oaks, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and Elder Lance B. Wickman, a member of the Seventy, on the subject of Same Sex Attraction (SSA).Â  Two of the Bloggernacleâ€™s tent pole institutions, Millennial Star and By Common Consent, eagerly tackled the subject and logged a whopping 445 and 221 comments respectively.Â  Like Ether at the end of the final Jaredite battle, I â€œgo forthâ€ (Ether 15:33) onto the now silent battlefield to wade through the carnage&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: D. Fletcher</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68715</link>
		<dc:creator>D. Fletcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68715</guid>
		<description>(Something I wrote over at T&amp;S that I just realized has some pertinence here, since I was asked &quot;why I stay.&quot;)

I analyze my own actions every single day of my life. Why do I stay in the Church? despite being a complete misfit and having serious misgivings about the purported origins of the Church.

I stay because of a combination of factors Iâ€™ve observed over my life â€” a deep â€œspiritualâ€ power is only one of these (and Iâ€™m not sure Iâ€™ve ever felt it). I stay primarily because I like what a belief in the Church makes people become, and Iâ€™d like to be one of those. I struggle between feeling mistrust in a Church that would have me transform myself (like thereâ€™s something wrong with me!) into a spiritual being, and knowing that â€œtransformationâ€ is exactly the point.

For two separate periods in my life, I stopped attending for a time. In both cases, I ended up feeling quite lost. Have I been brainwashed since my birth to feel this? Nonetheless, returning to the fold has alleviated real depression, because it is where Iâ€™m safe and embraced.

Some people have suggested that living Church principles is a courageous act, because theyâ€™re so difficult, so demanding. I actually disagree. The Church/Gospel is a survival guide, providing rules of comfort and ease in this very difficult and stressful mortal life. Obeying the Commandments makes life easier, not harder.

And I have felt spiritual presence, though perhaps in little details more than the â€œbig vision.â€ Fathers tending their babies in the foyer and giving heartfelt blessings and confirmations. Bishops who started out as awkward speakers suddenly revealing wisdom and grace over the pulpit. Busy career women making time to throw successful ward dinners, and teach supremely fulfilling Sunday School lessons. The level of service in our Church is quite remarkable â€” Iâ€™m often amazed to note the people who show up to â€œcleanâ€ our building, including retired executives with $100 million in their bank accounts.

All these little details of my Church-going life that Iâ€™ve observed have each made me want to stay and contribute what I can. And one more thingâ€¦ I live alone and I donâ€™t have children. I like to see the children, to hear them laugh (and cry), and I imagine that the Church is only beginning to influence their lives, to transform them into spiritual beings, so that the journey ahead will be rich, fulfilling, and marked by grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Something I wrote over at T&amp;S that I just realized has some pertinence here, since I was asked &#8220;why I stay.&#8221;)</p>
<p>I analyze my own actions every single day of my life. Why do I stay in the Church? despite being a complete misfit and having serious misgivings about the purported origins of the Church.</p>
<p>I stay because of a combination of factors Iâ€™ve observed over my life â€” a deep â€œspiritualâ€ power is only one of these (and Iâ€™m not sure Iâ€™ve ever felt it). I stay primarily because I like what a belief in the Church makes people become, and Iâ€™d like to be one of those. I struggle between feeling mistrust in a Church that would have me transform myself (like thereâ€™s something wrong with me!) into a spiritual being, and knowing that â€œtransformationâ€ is exactly the point.</p>
<p>For two separate periods in my life, I stopped attending for a time. In both cases, I ended up feeling quite lost. Have I been brainwashed since my birth to feel this? Nonetheless, returning to the fold has alleviated real depression, because it is where Iâ€™m safe and embraced.</p>
<p>Some people have suggested that living Church principles is a courageous act, because theyâ€™re so difficult, so demanding. I actually disagree. The Church/Gospel is a survival guide, providing rules of comfort and ease in this very difficult and stressful mortal life. Obeying the Commandments makes life easier, not harder.</p>
<p>And I have felt spiritual presence, though perhaps in little details more than the â€œbig vision.â€ Fathers tending their babies in the foyer and giving heartfelt blessings and confirmations. Bishops who started out as awkward speakers suddenly revealing wisdom and grace over the pulpit. Busy career women making time to throw successful ward dinners, and teach supremely fulfilling Sunday School lessons. The level of service in our Church is quite remarkable â€” Iâ€™m often amazed to note the people who show up to â€œcleanâ€ our building, including retired executives with $100 million in their bank accounts.</p>
<p>All these little details of my Church-going life that Iâ€™ve observed have each made me want to stay and contribute what I can. And one more thingâ€¦ I live alone and I donâ€™t have children. I like to see the children, to hear them laugh (and cry), and I imagine that the Church is only beginning to influence their lives, to transform them into spiritual beings, so that the journey ahead will be rich, fulfilling, and marked by grace.</p>
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		<title>By: Derrick</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/17/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68714</link>
		<dc:creator>Derrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/oaks-on-gays/#comment-68714</guid>
		<description>I was very disturbed by two comments made by Dallin Oaks.  1) he imagined parents would tell their gay children that they might not be expected to have extended stays in their home or expect to  introduce their gay child to their friends in a public setting.  2) &quot;discrimination is never a good arguement.&quot;  Frightening that these words would be uttered by an apostle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was very disturbed by two comments made by Dallin Oaks.  1) he imagined parents would tell their gay children that they might not be expected to have extended stays in their home or expect to  introduce their gay child to their friends in a public setting.  2) &#8220;discrimination is never a good arguement.&#8221;  Frightening that these words would be uttered by an apostle.</p>
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