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	<title>Comments on: Treasure Digging: A Drama in Three Acts</title>
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	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[smb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Sep 2006 06:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[js, i hadn&#039;t heard about Susan&#039;s project. what is it?

jns, I think people underappreciate the extent to which antebellum culture was death obsessed, although there are several good scholarly treatments in the last 20yrs addressing this point.  a common term for magic in general was &quot;necromancy&quot; in that period, the treasure hunters quiver was filled with charms to hide from ghosts, treasure guardians were the dead attached to a point in soil, treasure in an important sense was a relic of the dead, the adena-hopewell mounds were intimately tied into the treasure quest, the cave traditions smack of royal tombs. the list goes on.  I think this emphasis on the continuity of the treasure hunt neglects the continuity of the death conquest, frankly.   personally i&#039;m happy with JSJ as village seer, i like/respect him all the same, but I feel like the evidence has been pushing me toward a much greater continuity within geonecromancy than in our current views of antebellum American folk magic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>js, i hadn&#8217;t heard about Susan&#8217;s project. what is it?</p>
<p>jns, I think people underappreciate the extent to which antebellum culture was death obsessed, although there are several good scholarly treatments in the last 20yrs addressing this point.  a common term for magic in general was &#8220;necromancy&#8221; in that period, the treasure hunters quiver was filled with charms to hide from ghosts, treasure guardians were the dead attached to a point in soil, treasure in an important sense was a relic of the dead, the adena-hopewell mounds were intimately tied into the treasure quest, the cave traditions smack of royal tombs. the list goes on.  I think this emphasis on the continuity of the treasure hunt neglects the continuity of the death conquest, frankly.   personally i&#8217;m happy with JSJ as village seer, i like/respect him all the same, but I feel like the evidence has been pushing me toward a much greater continuity within geonecromancy than in our current views of antebellum American folk magic.</p>
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		<title>By: Bradley Ross</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100746</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bradley Ross]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see a strong connection between Joseph Smith and the recently returned missionary in JNS&#039;s dinner appointment. Both firmly believed something that turned out not to be true. Both publicly professed that erroneous belief. Neither is necessarily a fraud or a bad person because of it.

I&#039;m afraid I&#039;ve been like that elder before, probably on more occasions than I&#039;d like to admit or would even be aware of at present. At least I&#039;m in good company.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see a strong connection between Joseph Smith and the recently returned missionary in JNS&#8217;s dinner appointment. Both firmly believed something that turned out not to be true. Both publicly professed that erroneous belief. Neither is necessarily a fraud or a bad person because of it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid I&#8217;ve been like that elder before, probably on more occasions than I&#8217;d like to admit or would even be aware of at present. At least I&#8217;m in good company.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100745</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 17:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100745</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin, thanks for the fascinating comments.  The &lt;em&gt;Amenemope&lt;/em&gt; passages that you quote certainly do have the same idea, prevalent in New England treasure-digging culture and in the Book of Mormon text, of escaping treasure.  These ideas are, of course, substantially widespread, and in that sense the passages about treasure flying into the heavens are not particularly on point.  Treasure escapes a lot of ways in a lot of cultures; in the Book of Mormon and in Joseph Smith&#039;s New England, we have a distinctive connection in that already-buried treasure escapes from people who search for it by moving through the earth.  That&#039;s a much closer parallel than the treasure-through-the-heavens themes you quote.

However, the middle part of the &lt;em&gt;Amenemope&lt;/em&gt; passage is, as you note, more important.  There you have the ground swallowing up ill-gotten gains.  (Note that, between the Book of Mormon text, the &lt;em&gt;Amenemope&lt;/em&gt; passage, and New England treasure culture, we have a three-way parallel in the emphasis on ill-gotten wealth.  The Lindow article on Swedish treasure hunting that I cited above shows that this motif is exceedingly common in many different treasure cultures.)  That makes an undeniable parallel with the Book of Mormon; the ground acts to remove ill-gotten wealth.

On the other hand, the &lt;em&gt;Amenemope&lt;/em&gt; -- Book of Mormon parallel is somewhat weaker than the Book of Mormon -- New England parallel.  In the &lt;em&gt;Amenemope&lt;/em&gt; text, treasure is swallowed into the earth, and we don&#039;t know if it subsequently moves around underground.  In the Book of Mormon, treasure is deliberately buried and then starts to slip around underground to thwart someone trying to dig it up.  The same is, of course, true in New England.

This isn&#039;t a case where a definitive answer is available; as Rosalynde noted above, such parallels can be coincidental.  But it&#039;s helpful to keep in mind both options when interpreting these Book of Mormon passages: the fascinating and plausible ancient parallels that Kevin proposes, and the relatively stronger but still not definitive New England parallels.

smb, thanks for your comments.  I look forward to reading your full treatment on this subject.  In the meanwhile, however, let me respond to your brief summary here.  I think your ideas about Joseph&#039;s motivation to recover the voices of the dead is quite helpful, especially in thinking about the Book of Mormon project and the Kirtland period.  However, it strikes me as a bit anachronistic if projected back to his pre-Book of Mormon activities as a seer.  In searching for lost neighborhood property, Spanish silver mines, salt mines, and buried chests of coins, there&#039;s little opportunity to recover lost words.  Instead, the emphasis is squarely on wealth.  Joseph&#039;s self-reported initial approach to the Book of Mormon was also to emphasize the chance that it represented to get rich; the turn from the early, materialistic focus toward a focus on recovering words and ideas would seem to be a major discontinuity between Joseph&#039;s treasure-seer period and his prophetic period proper.  Your remarks suggest that you plan to deemphasize this discontinuity, which strikes me as a possible interpretive mistake.

Annegb, I agree; we&#039;re necessarily caught up in our own cultures.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, thanks for the fascinating comments.  The <em>Amenemope</em> passages that you quote certainly do have the same idea, prevalent in New England treasure-digging culture and in the Book of Mormon text, of escaping treasure.  These ideas are, of course, substantially widespread, and in that sense the passages about treasure flying into the heavens are not particularly on point.  Treasure escapes a lot of ways in a lot of cultures; in the Book of Mormon and in Joseph Smith&#8217;s New England, we have a distinctive connection in that already-buried treasure escapes from people who search for it by moving through the earth.  That&#8217;s a much closer parallel than the treasure-through-the-heavens themes you quote.</p>
<p>However, the middle part of the <em>Amenemope</em> passage is, as you note, more important.  There you have the ground swallowing up ill-gotten gains.  (Note that, between the Book of Mormon text, the <em>Amenemope</em> passage, and New England treasure culture, we have a three-way parallel in the emphasis on ill-gotten wealth.  The Lindow article on Swedish treasure hunting that I cited above shows that this motif is exceedingly common in many different treasure cultures.)  That makes an undeniable parallel with the Book of Mormon; the ground acts to remove ill-gotten wealth.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the <em>Amenemope</em> &#8212; Book of Mormon parallel is somewhat weaker than the Book of Mormon &#8212; New England parallel.  In the <em>Amenemope</em> text, treasure is swallowed into the earth, and we don&#8217;t know if it subsequently moves around underground.  In the Book of Mormon, treasure is deliberately buried and then starts to slip around underground to thwart someone trying to dig it up.  The same is, of course, true in New England.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t a case where a definitive answer is available; as Rosalynde noted above, such parallels can be coincidental.  But it&#8217;s helpful to keep in mind both options when interpreting these Book of Mormon passages: the fascinating and plausible ancient parallels that Kevin proposes, and the relatively stronger but still not definitive New England parallels.</p>
<p>smb, thanks for your comments.  I look forward to reading your full treatment on this subject.  In the meanwhile, however, let me respond to your brief summary here.  I think your ideas about Joseph&#8217;s motivation to recover the voices of the dead is quite helpful, especially in thinking about the Book of Mormon project and the Kirtland period.  However, it strikes me as a bit anachronistic if projected back to his pre-Book of Mormon activities as a seer.  In searching for lost neighborhood property, Spanish silver mines, salt mines, and buried chests of coins, there&#8217;s little opportunity to recover lost words.  Instead, the emphasis is squarely on wealth.  Joseph&#8217;s self-reported initial approach to the Book of Mormon was also to emphasize the chance that it represented to get rich; the turn from the early, materialistic focus toward a focus on recovering words and ideas would seem to be a major discontinuity between Joseph&#8217;s treasure-seer period and his prophetic period proper.  Your remarks suggest that you plan to deemphasize this discontinuity, which strikes me as a possible interpretive mistake.</p>
<p>Annegb, I agree; we&#8217;re necessarily caught up in our own cultures.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100744</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 17:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for that link, Kevin.  Good stuff.

I&#039;ll have to look forward to your book, smb.  I typically follow your connections and agree with them, but here, I don&#039;t see the adolescent Joseph conquering death, but fullfilling expectation and later searching for a measure of apotheosis or at least his exaltatation into the angelic pantheon.  I really look forward to Susan Stakers treatment (but who nows when that will be done?).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that link, Kevin.  Good stuff.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to look forward to your book, smb.  I typically follow your connections and agree with them, but here, I don&#8217;t see the adolescent Joseph conquering death, but fullfilling expectation and later searching for a measure of apotheosis or at least his exaltatation into the angelic pantheon.  I really look forward to Susan Stakers treatment (but who nows when that will be done?).</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100743</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[annegb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 17:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, Jesus was raised in a way that could be described as grooming Him, if you wanted to interpret it that way.  As was Gordon B. Hinckley.  We all bloom where we&#039;re planted whether we want to or not.  It makes sense to me that Joseph Smith had an interest in the very things that would become the whole point of his life.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Jesus was raised in a way that could be described as grooming Him, if you wanted to interpret it that way.  As was Gordon B. Hinckley.  We all bloom where we&#8217;re planted whether we want to or not.  It makes sense to me that Joseph Smith had an interest in the very things that would become the whole point of his life.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100742</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[smb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 16:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for an intriguing post.  There is another view, the practical implications of which I have not yet worked out because I see them as secondary.

I argue in my MHA 2006 presentation (and in book chapters of which the presentation was a brief summary) that in fact the treasure dig, particularly as JSJ participated in it, reflects a spirituo-cultural phenomenon I have opted to label geonecromancy, a belief in spiritual communications that are mediated by the dead, their relics, and the ground that contains them.  In this view, JSJ&#039;s primary interest all along was in recovering the voices of the dead (the BoM is fantastically explicit about this), and seerstones (which he never actually repudiated--just think about the earth purged of the dead being transformed/translated/resurrected into a giant seerstone), the treasure quest (what greater treasure/relic than the gold plates, rivalled only by the Chandler-Lebolo funeral papyri?), and the quest for the civilizations that stood behind the Indian burial mounds are all part of his passionate desire to understand and then conquer death.

This project, focused on the spiritual/human meaning underlying these activities, has for me at least been a wonderful experience of connection with JSJ and has helped me feel that I understand him better.  In addition my tender affection for him has increased substantially.

I&#039;m no psychologist, but I have felt that polemics, apologia, and feuding casuistry (though they definitely fill a role) can distract us from understanding the psychic (not in the &quot;paranormal&quot; sense) meaning of these experiences for the people involved.

By way of self-promotion, and with due apologies to the Blogdom, I hope to have the book manuscript done by Christmas, and I look forward to discussions about the merits of the geonecromantic perspective on early Mormonism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for an intriguing post.  There is another view, the practical implications of which I have not yet worked out because I see them as secondary.</p>
<p>I argue in my MHA 2006 presentation (and in book chapters of which the presentation was a brief summary) that in fact the treasure dig, particularly as JSJ participated in it, reflects a spirituo-cultural phenomenon I have opted to label geonecromancy, a belief in spiritual communications that are mediated by the dead, their relics, and the ground that contains them.  In this view, JSJ&#8217;s primary interest all along was in recovering the voices of the dead (the BoM is fantastically explicit about this), and seerstones (which he never actually repudiated&#8211;just think about the earth purged of the dead being transformed/translated/resurrected into a giant seerstone), the treasure quest (what greater treasure/relic than the gold plates, rivalled only by the Chandler-Lebolo funeral papyri?), and the quest for the civilizations that stood behind the Indian burial mounds are all part of his passionate desire to understand and then conquer death.</p>
<p>This project, focused on the spiritual/human meaning underlying these activities, has for me at least been a wonderful experience of connection with JSJ and has helped me feel that I understand him better.  In addition my tender affection for him has increased substantially.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no psychologist, but I have felt that polemics, apologia, and feuding casuistry (though they definitely fill a role) can distract us from understanding the psychic (not in the &#8220;paranormal&#8221; sense) meaning of these experiences for the people involved.</p>
<p>By way of self-promotion, and with due apologies to the Blogdom, I hope to have the book manuscript done by Christmas, and I look forward to discussions about the merits of the geonecromantic perspective on early Mormonism.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100741</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I personally approach this the same way J. Stapley and J. Nelson-Seawright do.  We are all conditioned by our cultures, and Joseph no less than the rest of us.  It took me a while to come to this conclusion.  One of the few revelations about church history that ever bothered me was the Salamander letter.  I rolled up my sleeves and read some of the historiographical literature on the culture of money digging (even before Quinn came out with &lt;em&gt;Magic World View&lt;/em&gt;), and being able to put this all in a cultural context made all the difference for me.

On the BoM passages, I am open to JNS&#039;s third &quot;expansion&quot; option, but another possibility is that the idea of slippery treasures that sink into the earth is authentically ancient.  See a little piece I wrote on this subject, &lt;a href=&quot;http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=insights&amp;id=140&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally approach this the same way J. Stapley and J. Nelson-Seawright do.  We are all conditioned by our cultures, and Joseph no less than the rest of us.  It took me a while to come to this conclusion.  One of the few revelations about church history that ever bothered me was the Salamander letter.  I rolled up my sleeves and read some of the historiographical literature on the culture of money digging (even before Quinn came out with <em>Magic World View</em>), and being able to put this all in a cultural context made all the difference for me.</p>
<p>On the BoM passages, I am open to JNS&#8217;s third &#8220;expansion&#8221; option, but another possibility is that the idea of slippery treasures that sink into the earth is authentically ancient.  See a little piece I wrote on this subject, <a href="http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=insights&#038;id=140" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100740</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rosalynde]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 02:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RT, I don&#039;t think a transmission through transatlantic adventure romance disturbs your analysis at all. It&#039;s mostly a bookish quibble about the precise genealogy of your childhood game. The more I think about it, though, the more I think I&#039;m right: take a look at &lt;em&gt;Tom Sawyer &lt;/em&gt;,around chapter 25 (I googled this, I don&#039;t know it off the top of my head), for a highly entertaining revue of the genre. Tom choreographs his treasure-digging strictly by the book---meaning the dozens of popular pirate adventure novels inspired by &lt;em&gt;Treasure Island&lt;/em&gt;. The allusions are really quite explicit.

This is not, however, to say that New England treasure hunting is irrelevant to your experience in the sandbox. Just that cultural transmissions are often polymorphous and diffuse, with many routes winding through the narrative, historical and technological wildernesses.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RT, I don&#8217;t think a transmission through transatlantic adventure romance disturbs your analysis at all. It&#8217;s mostly a bookish quibble about the precise genealogy of your childhood game. The more I think about it, though, the more I think I&#8217;m right: take a look at <em>Tom Sawyer </em>,around chapter 25 (I googled this, I don&#8217;t know it off the top of my head), for a highly entertaining revue of the genre. Tom choreographs his treasure-digging strictly by the book&#8212;meaning the dozens of popular pirate adventure novels inspired by <em>Treasure Island</em>. The allusions are really quite explicit.</p>
<p>This is not, however, to say that New England treasure hunting is irrelevant to your experience in the sandbox. Just that cultural transmissions are often polymorphous and diffuse, with many routes winding through the narrative, historical and technological wildernesses.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jonathan,

An interesting point.  I agree that buried treasure does in fact exist on occasion.  There are even laws about how to deal with it when it is found (and, for the most part, the laws seem to assign the treasure to the government).

On the other hand, with respect to early New England treasure digging, it&#039;s not the mere act of looking for treasure that I find most interesting.  Instead, it&#039;s the mode of looking, and the circumstances surrounding the failure to locate treasure.  I&#039;m unaware of a single documented (non-fraudulent) instance in which buried treasure was actually discovered using a dowsing rod, seer stones, or visions from treasure spirits.  In accounting for these practices, as well as the beliefs about how treasures moving through the earth, how they develop or are preserved underground, etc., connections with alchemical and hermetic philosophy would seem a rather more promising explanation than actual, occasional windfalls.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan,</p>
<p>An interesting point.  I agree that buried treasure does in fact exist on occasion.  There are even laws about how to deal with it when it is found (and, for the most part, the laws seem to assign the treasure to the government).</p>
<p>On the other hand, with respect to early New England treasure digging, it&#8217;s not the mere act of looking for treasure that I find most interesting.  Instead, it&#8217;s the mode of looking, and the circumstances surrounding the failure to locate treasure.  I&#8217;m unaware of a single documented (non-fraudulent) instance in which buried treasure was actually discovered using a dowsing rod, seer stones, or visions from treasure spirits.  In accounting for these practices, as well as the beliefs about how treasures moving through the earth, how they develop or are preserved underground, etc., connections with alchemical and hermetic philosophy would seem a rather more promising explanation than actual, occasional windfalls.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100738</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Green]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 22:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/treasure-digging/#comment-100738</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Shouldn&#039;t a discussion of treasure-digging narratives take into account the fact that, you know, sometimes there really is treasure at the bottom of the hole? Hoards get buried, and tomb robbers had to earn a living somehow. The gold that actually got dug up from time to time was probably at least as influential as the theories of the alchemists.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shouldn&#8217;t a discussion of treasure-digging narratives take into account the fact that, you know, sometimes there really is treasure at the bottom of the hole? Hoards get buried, and tomb robbers had to earn a living somehow. The gold that actually got dug up from time to time was probably at least as influential as the theories of the alchemists.</p>
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