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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;The Missouri Mormon Experience&#8221;: A Conference Report</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Hellmut</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79493</link>
		<dc:creator>Hellmut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79493</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Even though most of the early Mormons (including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young) were ardent Jackson democrats, they put their political preferences aside in order to carry out the prophetic vision of Zion-building.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s an interesting way of putting it, Mark.  You are describing the change of opinion in terms of personal sacrifice.  Outsiders, of course, would have quickly pointed out that Joseph Smith was the beneficiary of the new order.

The Jacksonians gave Smith a voice.  That&#039;s something but it cannot compete with the prophetic status of Mormonism and all that came along with it.

The change of preferences coincides with Joseph&#039;s self-interest.

If one begins to cast self-interest in the terms of virtue then it becomes a lot more difficult to compromise.  That&#039;s especially true if revelation plays a role.  After all, one can hardly compromise the word of God.

That&#039;s a problem that continues to plague Mormon culture to this day.  It&#039;s almost impossible for Mormon leaders (and some of us followers) to admit that they have been wrong.  In a religiously diverse society that makes it very difficult for us to meet our obligations as neighbors and citizens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Even though most of the early Mormons (including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young) were ardent Jackson democrats, they put their political preferences aside in order to carry out the prophetic vision of Zion-building.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s an interesting way of putting it, Mark.  You are describing the change of opinion in terms of personal sacrifice.  Outsiders, of course, would have quickly pointed out that Joseph Smith was the beneficiary of the new order.</p>
<p>The Jacksonians gave Smith a voice.  That&#8217;s something but it cannot compete with the prophetic status of Mormonism and all that came along with it.</p>
<p>The change of preferences coincides with Joseph&#8217;s self-interest.</p>
<p>If one begins to cast self-interest in the terms of virtue then it becomes a lot more difficult to compromise.  That&#8217;s especially true if revelation plays a role.  After all, one can hardly compromise the word of God.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a problem that continues to plague Mormon culture to this day.  It&#8217;s almost impossible for Mormon leaders (and some of us followers) to admit that they have been wrong.  In a religiously diverse society that makes it very difficult for us to meet our obligations as neighbors and citizens.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79492</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79492</guid>
		<description>I suppose that I am a Johnny-come-lately to this conversation, but I will still add insight.  I believe that the scriptures have indeed made it clear that the center stake of Zion will be in Jackson county.  Zion will also be the name of the city in Jackson County, or the &quot;new Jerusalem.&quot;  The D&amp;C refers to it as a &quot;place of refuge&quot; from the wars and calamities that will be ravaging the world when it is time to build Zion.  I personally believe that the amount of devastation in the world may render Jackson County a clean slate, so to speak.  There may not be a Kansas City left. Not particularly referring to KC, but to American cities in general, one might look at 3 nephi and God&#039;s enumeration of the fate of the wicked cities of the posterity of Lehi.

Barbeque will probably not be a major meal in zion (parts of 3rd nephi, as well as other references in the d&amp;c to the remnant of Joseph, would suggest tacos and enchiladas, or rice and refried beans) as the saints who live through the calamities and are refined to the point of being allowed to construct the holy city will be truly living the word of wisdom.

Mark said &quot;Barring some sort of war or severe religious persecution,&quot;  I belive that both will occur, as well as earthquakes, thunderings, lightenings, famines and pestilence.  These will unite and purify the church and form us into a Zion people, ready to reclaim the &quot;land of our inheritance&quot;

As an aside, someone asked, &quot;If it is an inheritance, why must we work for it?&quot;  One must fight for heritage and legacy, to honor it to claim it, and to preserve it to our posterity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose that I am a Johnny-come-lately to this conversation, but I will still add insight.  I believe that the scriptures have indeed made it clear that the center stake of Zion will be in Jackson county.  Zion will also be the name of the city in Jackson County, or the &#8220;new Jerusalem.&#8221;  The D&amp;C refers to it as a &#8220;place of refuge&#8221; from the wars and calamities that will be ravaging the world when it is time to build Zion.  I personally believe that the amount of devastation in the world may render Jackson County a clean slate, so to speak.  There may not be a Kansas City left. Not particularly referring to KC, but to American cities in general, one might look at 3 nephi and God&#8217;s enumeration of the fate of the wicked cities of the posterity of Lehi.</p>
<p>Barbeque will probably not be a major meal in zion (parts of 3rd nephi, as well as other references in the d&amp;c to the remnant of Joseph, would suggest tacos and enchiladas, or rice and refried beans) as the saints who live through the calamities and are refined to the point of being allowed to construct the holy city will be truly living the word of wisdom.</p>
<p>Mark said &#8220;Barring some sort of war or severe religious persecution,&#8221;  I belive that both will occur, as well as earthquakes, thunderings, lightenings, famines and pestilence.  These will unite and purify the church and form us into a Zion people, ready to reclaim the &#8220;land of our inheritance&#8221;</p>
<p>As an aside, someone asked, &#8220;If it is an inheritance, why must we work for it?&#8221;  One must fight for heritage and legacy, to honor it to claim it, and to preserve it to our posterity.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79491</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79491</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it is the least bit reasonable to conclude that the whole population of the Church will descend upon Jackson County.  The land of Zion has been described as the whole of North and South America.  And we generally understand that the land of inheritance for all tribes other than Joseph to be the Old World, with the Old Jerusalem as its headquarters.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of &lt;em&gt;Zion&lt;/em&gt; shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from &lt;em&gt;Jerusalem&lt;/em&gt;
(Isaiah 2:3)
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So barring some sort of war or severe religious persecution, I can&#039;t see the majority of members being &lt;em&gt;generally&lt;/em&gt; required or even asked to move at all, at least in the short run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it is the least bit reasonable to conclude that the whole population of the Church will descend upon Jackson County.  The land of Zion has been described as the whole of North and South America.  And we generally understand that the land of inheritance for all tribes other than Joseph to be the Old World, with the Old Jerusalem as its headquarters.</p>
<blockquote><p>
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of <em>Zion</em> shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from <em>Jerusalem</em><br />
(Isaiah 2:3)
</p></blockquote>
<p>So barring some sort of war or severe religious persecution, I can&#8217;t see the majority of members being <em>generally</em> required or even asked to move at all, at least in the short run.</p>
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79490</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79490</guid>
		<description>Whoops - make that Friday (on the capitol steps) !</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops &#8211; make that Friday (on the capitol steps) !</p>
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		<title>By: Rex</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79489</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 16:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79489</guid>
		<description>Mark,

Good report.  I too was at the conference.

What did you make of the closing remarks by Bob Flanders ( a non-member) ?  Seemed to me like a few times he wanted to be just a little critical of the church - and then would stop short.  He remarked that what had happened Saturday out on the capitol steps (the good will extended to the church by the state) was not just honorable and right - but sincere - and then asked if the reverse were true.  Made me think about the temple dedication ceremony in Nauvoo a few years ago where I was just a little uncomfortable/surprised at how sharp President Hinckley&#039;s words were concerning Ford and Boggs.  (shades of the oath of vengeance)

Flanders also commented that even if he were not aware of which presenters were LDS - he could have easily picked them out - not so much by what was said - but the way it was said.  Not sure where he was going with that - although he did add that &quot;inside talk&quot; was very important in close communities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>Good report.  I too was at the conference.</p>
<p>What did you make of the closing remarks by Bob Flanders ( a non-member) ?  Seemed to me like a few times he wanted to be just a little critical of the church &#8211; and then would stop short.  He remarked that what had happened Saturday out on the capitol steps (the good will extended to the church by the state) was not just honorable and right &#8211; but sincere &#8211; and then asked if the reverse were true.  Made me think about the temple dedication ceremony in Nauvoo a few years ago where I was just a little uncomfortable/surprised at how sharp President Hinckley&#8217;s words were concerning Ford and Boggs.  (shades of the oath of vengeance)</p>
<p>Flanders also commented that even if he were not aware of which presenters were LDS &#8211; he could have easily picked them out &#8211; not so much by what was said &#8211; but the way it was said.  Not sure where he was going with that &#8211; although he did add that &#8220;inside talk&#8221; was very important in close communities.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79488</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79488</guid>
		<description>I wonder how far &quot;Missouri&quot; is a &quot;conscious myth.&quot;

Look at it this way. A world scenario that envisages millions of Mormons being allowed to freely descend on Jackson County is a pretty extreme one, so extreme, one wonders how on earth the Mormons of Cambodia, Chile and Carpathia could ever be part of it. I mean, honestly, how the hell are they all going to get there?

Yet these Mormons are still being taught of &quot;Missouri&quot; (see Thomas Parkin&#039;s observation) and dream of &quot;next year in Zion.&quot; But it&#039;s not an idle dream: it serves as inspiration for building their own Zion in the here and now. For, how can we build a great City of Zion if we cannot build Zion in our homes, Wards, and Stakes?

This is why I love the Mormon Zion myth. It does not imagine we are readying for some court on high, but an actual place right here on Earth. It&#039;s wonderfully chthonic, the best part of Mormonism.

I will never live in Jackson County. But I still dream of &quot;Jackson County.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder how far &#8220;Missouri&#8221; is a &#8220;conscious myth.&#8221;</p>
<p>Look at it this way. A world scenario that envisages millions of Mormons being allowed to freely descend on Jackson County is a pretty extreme one, so extreme, one wonders how on earth the Mormons of Cambodia, Chile and Carpathia could ever be part of it. I mean, honestly, how the hell are they all going to get there?</p>
<p>Yet these Mormons are still being taught of &#8220;Missouri&#8221; (see Thomas Parkin&#8217;s observation) and dream of &#8220;next year in Zion.&#8221; But it&#8217;s not an idle dream: it serves as inspiration for building their own Zion in the here and now. For, how can we build a great City of Zion if we cannot build Zion in our homes, Wards, and Stakes?</p>
<p>This is why I love the Mormon Zion myth. It does not imagine we are readying for some court on high, but an actual place right here on Earth. It&#8217;s wonderfully chthonic, the best part of Mormonism.</p>
<p>I will never live in Jackson County. But I still dream of &#8220;Jackson County.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Parkin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79487</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Parkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79487</guid>
		<description>I found it interesting that the Gospel Principles manual - from which I teach new members and investigators - contains the following in a list of events that will proceed the Second Coming:

Building the New Jerusalem
Near the time of the coming of Jesus, faithful Saints will build a righteous city, a City of God, called the New Jerusalem. Christ himself will rule there. The Lord has said the city will be built in the State of Missouri ...

So, in any case, this is being presented to new members as standing doctrine.

~</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found it interesting that the Gospel Principles manual &#8211; from which I teach new members and investigators &#8211; contains the following in a list of events that will proceed the Second Coming:</p>
<p>Building the New Jerusalem<br />
Near the time of the coming of Jesus, faithful Saints will build a righteous city, a City of God, called the New Jerusalem. Christ himself will rule there. The Lord has said the city will be built in the State of Missouri &#8230;</p>
<p>So, in any case, this is being presented to new members as standing doctrine.</p>
<p>~</p>
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		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79486</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 07:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79486</guid>
		<description>You know, we Mormons are such a funny, strange lot.

I have nothing against Missouri, but it sounds so hilarious to say &quot;Kansas City is the New Jerusalem.&quot;

I like it though. It&#039;s so crazy it might just be true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, we Mormons are such a funny, strange lot.</p>
<p>I have nothing against Missouri, but it sounds so hilarious to say &#8220;Kansas City is the New Jerusalem.&#8221;</p>
<p>I like it though. It&#8217;s so crazy it might just be true.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79485</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 07:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79485</guid>
		<description>I am not under the impression that the leaders of the Church want us to remember it, any more than the scriptures on the subject would indicate to passing readers, in any case.  It is counter-productive in the present circumstance. We need members to stay and build up the Church where they are.

I imagine when the circumstance is right, and the command goes forth, the need for a renewal of the physical gathering will be painfully obvious to all concerned, among the Saints at any rate. I can&#039;t say I expect it tommorrow or the next day - I think we are talking exigent circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not under the impression that the leaders of the Church want us to remember it, any more than the scriptures on the subject would indicate to passing readers, in any case.  It is counter-productive in the present circumstance. We need members to stay and build up the Church where they are.</p>
<p>I imagine when the circumstance is right, and the command goes forth, the need for a renewal of the physical gathering will be painfully obvious to all concerned, among the Saints at any rate. I can&#8217;t say I expect it tommorrow or the next day &#8211; I think we are talking exigent circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: Johnna Cornett</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/11/the-missouri-mormon-experience-a-conference-report/#comment-79484</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnna Cornett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 06:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>To John F., #8: So Alvin Dyer publicized the idea of a Missouri Zion Center Place?  Figures, Phooey.  Alvin Dyer, author and publicist of that ridiculous Church and the Negro book, has no credibility with me.   The man went around making up theology that turned folk superstition into an algebraic system without the beauty or the compassion or the truth.  I don&#039;t like Alvin Dyer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To John F., #8: So Alvin Dyer publicized the idea of a Missouri Zion Center Place?  Figures, Phooey.  Alvin Dyer, author and publicist of that ridiculous Church and the Negro book, has no credibility with me.   The man went around making up theology that turned folk superstition into an algebraic system without the beauty or the compassion or the truth.  I don&#8217;t like Alvin Dyer.</p>
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