Comments on: American Mormons remember their British heritage http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/ A Mormon Blog Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:39:41 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Ronan http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50652 Ronan Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:23:26 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50652 Kay, Thanks for that. I would love to see any journals you might have. ronan at jhu dot edu Kay,
Thanks for that. I would love to see any journals you might have. ronan at jhu dot edu

]]> By: Kay http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50651 Kay Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:15:10 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50651 A correction to your sad story: James Kirkwood (age 11) carried his younger brother, Joseph Campbell Kirkwood (age 4), not his crippled older brother Thomas (age 19), who rode on the handcart pushed by their oldest brother Robert (my great-great-grandfather) and their mother. A correction to your sad story: James Kirkwood (age 11) carried his younger brother, Joseph Campbell Kirkwood (age 4), not his crippled older brother Thomas (age 19), who rode on the handcart pushed by their oldest brother Robert (my great-great-grandfather) and their mother.

]]> By: 176th Semiannual LDS General Conference Sunday Morning « Messenger and Advocate http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50628 176th Semiannual LDS General Conference Sunday Morning « Messenger and Advocate Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:59:21 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50628 [...] 150th anniversary of Wille handcart companies. They began this travel in faith. They had little or no knowledge of what they were getting into. They ran into very harsh obstacles and death. Scores died and were buried in the frozen ground. When Brigham Young received their distress note in conference he took immediate action and instructed the saints to go and rescue their brethren out on the plains with food and supplies. This took place immediately. While some 200 died, 1000’s were saved. Pres. Hinckley’s wife’s great grandmother was one of those. [...] [...] 150th anniversary of Wille handcart companies. They began this travel in faith. They had little or no knowledge of what they were getting into. They ran into very harsh obstacles and death. Scores died and were buried in the frozen ground. When Brigham Young received their distress note in conference he took immediate action and instructed the saints to go and rescue their brethren out on the plains with food and supplies. This took place immediately. While some 200 died, 1000’s were saved. Pres. Hinckley’s wife’s great grandmother was one of those. [...]

]]> By: Joanne http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50627 Joanne Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:01:04 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50627 In the most recent issue of BYU Studies, there's an article about Francis Webster, the older man who is famous for stopping a Sunday School discussion in 1904 criticizing church leaders for letting Martin handcart company leave so late. ("We became acquainted with [God] in our extremities.") I love that story, but I'm also happy to have someone investigate the claims and context. The author talks about Webster's claim that none in the company uttered a word of criticism, and "not one of that company ever apostatized or left the church." Some did. For example, Henry Augustus Squires and some of his family returned to England in 1867 where Henry again became a Baptist minister until his death in 1914. Henry Kemp and Deborah Jane Chapman joined RLDS. As usual, the same experience can produce different outcomes based on what people bring TO the experience. In the most recent issue of BYU Studies, there’s an article about Francis Webster, the older man who is famous for stopping a Sunday School discussion in 1904 criticizing church leaders for letting Martin handcart company leave so late. (“We became acquainted with [God] in our extremities.”) I love that story, but I’m also happy to have someone investigate the claims and context. The author talks about Webster’s claim that none in the company uttered a word of criticism, and “not one of that company ever apostatized or left the church.” Some did. For example, Henry Augustus Squires and some of his family returned to England in 1867 where Henry again became a Baptist minister until his death in 1914. Henry Kemp and Deborah Jane Chapman joined RLDS. As usual, the same experience can produce different outcomes based on what people bring TO the experience.

]]> By: Brad Kramer http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50650 Brad Kramer Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:20:14 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50650 Ronan, Edit away. I mentioned it because it was the only stock English-hating Irishman I could conjure up off the top of my head. Truthfully (as I mentioned in the Bush-is-not-the-prophet thread), I abhor the film and am ashamed to have enjoyed it as a teenager. Such, perhaps, is the wistful, lustful, testosterone-induced folly of male American youth. Ronan,
Edit away. I mentioned it because it was the only stock English-hating Irishman I could conjure up off the top of my head. Truthfully (as I mentioned in the Bush-is-not-the-prophet thread), I abhor the film and am ashamed to have enjoyed it as a teenager.
Such, perhaps, is the wistful, lustful, testosterone-induced folly of male American youth.

]]> By: Ronan http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50649 Ronan Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:37:56 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50649 Brad, I may have to edit your comment. Br*veh@*rtt is not to be mentioned in my company. Brad,
I may have to edit your comment. Br*veh@*rtt is not to be mentioned in my company.

]]> By: Brad Kramer http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50648 Brad Kramer Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:30:22 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50648 Another tidbit: if you're ever in Salt Lake and have an hour to waste, go take a look at the cemetary at Fort Douglas by the University of Utah campus. The Fort, named (not coincidentally) for the then famously anti Mormon Illinois politician Stephen Douglas, housed a division of the US military that was stationed there essentially to keep the Mormons in line. If you look at the headstones at the Fort's cemetery for the territorial period, you'll see an unusually high percentage of Irish names. This might be incidental, but I'm reminded of a colorful character from the film Braveheart, an Irishman who gleefully joins the cause of William the Wallace because he will "get to kill English." Another tidbit: if you’re ever in Salt Lake and have an hour to waste, go take a look at the cemetary at Fort Douglas by the University of Utah campus. The Fort, named (not coincidentally) for the then famously anti Mormon Illinois politician Stephen Douglas, housed a division of the US military that was stationed there essentially to keep the Mormons in line. If you look at the headstones at the Fort’s cemetery for the territorial period, you’ll see an unusually high percentage of Irish names. This might be incidental, but I’m reminded of a colorful character from the film Braveheart, an Irishman who gleefully joins the cause of William the Wallace because he will “get to kill English.”

]]> By: Ronan http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50647 Ronan Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:03:13 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50647 Paula, great anecdote. "Damed green Englishman." Love it. Paula, great anecdote. “Damed green Englishman.” Love it.

]]> By: paula http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50646 paula Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:18:27 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50646 I grew up in northern Utah, and three of my four grandparents were grandchildren, or children, of English immigrants. (The other one was Danish, with Danish pioneer grandparents.) While I was growing up, I don't think I realized what a change this must have been for European immigrants. Utah seemed a lush fertile place to me, compared with Wyoming, and everyone I knew had at least some experience with livestock, and farming. It didn't occur to me until much later, when I had moved away, how utterly horrible Wyoming must have seemed to my English ancestors. One of them died from bad water out along the Sweetwater-- a place that must have been unimaginable to her a few months earlier. A ggg grandfather of mine kept a diary and also wrote a life history which have been edited into a very good book, along with his letters. It's called "William F. Rigby, The True Aim of a Noble Man". He was born to an unwed mother, in Stockport, near Manchester, in 1833. He went to work in the silk mills when he was 8. He joined the church later, and came across the plains at the age of twenty, with his wife, who had also been in the mills. This part of his life sketch is a good example here, "And I was selected to drive a team connsisting of 2 yoke of oxen and a yoke of cows which was quite a task for me as I did not know how to select my team from the herd nor what to say either to start or stop the. But we had as good a man for our captain, I think , as ever crossed the plains of the name of Major John Brown, who has been at this date of writeing, 1884, bishop of Pleasant Grove in Utah County for many years and has still proved to be a good, kind bishop as he was a good kind captain to us.......(skipping over some of the text)... When we started out from camp the first day I had an incident occured which seemed to learn me at least to be very careful as we drove on a turnpike road planked with 2 inch lumber some fives miles & a ditch on each side. My team got thirsty and Brother James Newton of Manchester and Lees of Stockport should have been on the off side watching the team till I got used to driveing, but [they] left, & the team run off the road into the ditch & upset the wagon, & my wife Mary &Sister Newton & some of her children being in the wagon screeamed terribly, & it allmost paralized me. Then Captain Isaac C. Haight who had charge of the whole of that season's emigrations being a short distance ahead rode back & seeing me standing there all most scared out my wits said to me, 'You damed green Englishman, cotton spinner, weaver or whatever you are, come help these folks out of this wagon.' Well, I had never before heard a Mormon leder use such language before, & it just parilized me to the spot. After repeated over with more vemimence still & moved off, but still there I stood till Captain John Brown came, & he spoke so kind to me that it aroused me from my stupor at once. &I assisted to unload the wagon & as luck would have it, no one was hurt & only the front standard broke, so we were soon on our way again." (Spelling and wording as in the original) I grew up in northern Utah, and three of my four grandparents were grandchildren, or children, of English immigrants. (The other one was Danish, with Danish pioneer grandparents.) While I was growing up, I don’t think I realized what a change this must have been for European immigrants. Utah seemed a lush fertile place to me, compared with Wyoming, and everyone I knew had at least some experience with livestock, and farming. It didn’t occur to me until much later, when I had moved away, how utterly horrible Wyoming must have seemed to my English ancestors. One of them died from bad water out along the Sweetwater– a place that must have been unimaginable to her a few months earlier. A ggg grandfather of mine kept a diary and also wrote a life history which have been edited into a very good book, along with his letters. It’s called “William F. Rigby, The True Aim of a Noble Man”. He was born to an unwed mother, in Stockport, near Manchester, in 1833. He went to work in the silk mills when he was 8. He joined the church later, and came across the plains at the age of twenty, with his wife, who had also been in the mills. This part of his life sketch is a good example here, “And I was selected to drive a team connsisting of 2 yoke of oxen and a yoke of cows which was quite a task for me as I did not know how to select my team from the herd nor what to say either to start or stop the. But we had as good a man for our captain, I think , as ever crossed the plains of the name of Major John Brown, who has been at this date of writeing, 1884, bishop of Pleasant Grove in Utah County for many years and has still proved to be a good, kind bishop as he was a good kind captain to us…….(skipping over some of the text)… When we started out from camp the first day I had an incident occured which seemed to learn me at least to be very careful as we drove on a turnpike road planked with 2 inch lumber some fives miles & a ditch on each side. My team got thirsty and Brother James Newton of Manchester and Lees of Stockport should have been on the off side watching the team till I got used to driveing, but [they] left, & the team run off the road into the ditch & upset the wagon, & my wife Mary &Sister Newton & some of her children being in the wagon screeamed terribly, & it allmost paralized me. Then Captain Isaac C. Haight who had charge of the whole of that season’s emigrations being a short distance ahead rode back & seeing me standing there all most scared out my wits said to me, ‘You damed green Englishman, cotton spinner, weaver or whatever you are, come help these folks out of this wagon.’ Well, I had never before heard a Mormon leder use such language before, & it just parilized me to the spot. After repeated over with more vemimence still & moved off, but still there I stood till Captain John Brown came, & he spoke so kind to me that it aroused me from my stupor at once. &I assisted to unload the wagon & as luck would have it, no one was hurt & only the front standard broke, so we were soon on our way again.” (Spelling and wording as in the original)

]]> By: Mark IV http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/24/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50645 Mark IV Mon, 25 Sep 2006 14:48:23 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/09/american-mormons-remember-their-british-heritage/#comment-50645 Thanks for the exact citation, Mark. It's funny what we <em>think</em> we remember. I also appreciate how you brought out the fact that these people were refugees from the industrial revolution in Britain, city dwellers who were unprepared for the American frontier. It must have been very difficult for them. Thanks for the exact citation, Mark. It’s funny what we think we remember.

I also appreciate how you brought out the fact that these people were refugees from the industrial revolution in Britain, city dwellers who were unprepared for the American frontier. It must have been very difficult for them.

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