Comments on: #1, Ichiban, Numero Uno

By: Rachel

Rachel — Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:16:19 +0000

Hey Dudes,

As a convert I find it quite offensive when members of our church go “neener we are better than you are” in discussing other churches. I grew up catholic and went to 12 years of catholic school. Even though my spiritual journey brought me to the LDS church, a great deal of my culture is from the catholic tradition. When people say derogatory things in sunday school, RS or the other, I have to say something – a) cuz it just ain’t nice and most people who are true to their faiths are pretty nice themselves b) who does the disser think s/he is c) I bet the church they are putting down has qualities that we would perhaps enjoy (better music, exchanging signs of peace etc.)

By: queuno

queuno — Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:47:53 +0000

Peter (#22) seems about to rock, and for that, I salute him.

By: Thomas Parkin

Thomas Parkin — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:09:01 +0000

There is MUCH less of this in the church now than we saw 20-25 years ago. When I was a teenager, we were taught to “Bible Bash” – a good deal of the scripture learning I did in the New Testament, for instance, was in order to counter, we presumed effectively, typical Protestant interpretations. Lessons and talks were frequently laced with just the kind of thing you describe. While I do still hear some of that, it is almost always qualified, and so much rarer. There is MUCH more – I want to type infinitely more – coucil concerning the goodness and correctness in other, especially Christian, religions, than I recall. (Go to LDS.org and in the Recent Addresses section (in the Gospel Library), read Elder Packer’s excellent comments on the Light of Christ, for a good one of many examples.)

All that said, there are times to call a spade a spade. There is a time for everything, eh? Takes more wisdom to know when than most of us are capable of. I try more and more to keep quiet at times I may have spoken out before – mostly because, left to myself, I’m never sure that I might not do more harm than good. One comment made by inspiration of the Spirit is worth a month of meetings without it where we give out reflexively the usual fare. (I’m aquainted enough with the Spirit to realize that I’m speaking without it in this post. It’s just me, it’s just what I think – that has value but not so much in a Sacrament Meeting talk.)

Re: tithing. I prefer to say, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. There are certainly temporal blessings associated with tithing. I have my stories like many LDS. But, I prefer to think of it mostly in other terms. I confess that I pay it at least in part out of fear that my business will fail if I don’t. That is low, immature, motivation, but one that is there for me. I would keep paying it even if my business did fail, however.

Re: the scripture in Mormon 8. I prefer taking that as instruction to Latter-Day Saints than to churches in general(not that it doesn’t have more unviersal application). One verse later than what is quoted Mormon says, “why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? …” I find this pointedly directed at Latter-Day Saints, the holy church of God, rather than at the Christian or religious world in general. I think when he makes these criticisms he is looking primarily at us. It is, naturally, possible to build beautiful churches and still take care of people’s needs, physical and spiritual. I even think of being surrounded by beauty as a human need. And, the poor you have always with you. But, it is a matter of priorities and where, as always, one’s heart really is.

My 2 cents.

By: smb

smb — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 03:46:02 +0000

Amri: always glad to see your posts. sometimes we talk about the other because we are trying to understand the significance of our choices. I choose X. What does that choice mean? Are there other competing choices? What do they look like in actual practice? We seem to be hopelessly grounded in reality, so when we try to carry out this kind of thinking we often associate it with other people–they are the anecdotes through which we understand our own choices.
I’m not bothered that people would understand anonymous giving as distinct from named giving and try to conjure up the competing view by reference to the practices of others. That may be an important way to reflect on an aspect of the Mormon practice of tithing that often escapes detection. The problem generally comes, I think, when this view is aggressively extended in the pursuit of condemnation of other people rather than understanding our own view better, or, as I think you mention, in a triumphalist vein.
One does wonder why, if tithing is the great beacon of anonymous (therefore pure in a Kantian and Halesian sense) giving, we don’t see fewer surnames of rich Mormons adorning various structures in our lives.
I would recommend enclosing the wet baby in a hooded towel rather than dropping it with its bathwater down the drain.

By: Sam

Sam — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:48:58 +0000

I just stumbled across this forum and read your comments with interest. I think that you are perhaps missing the larger picture Amri. There are two issues of paramount importance in this discussion: do you believe the principle of tithing to be true, and do you believe that we should love our neighbors and forgive them their shortcomings. People, being human, are always going to make statements, use quotes, etc in ways that we may disagree with, at times violently. By constantly looking for fault and points of contention, we set ourselves up for a life of negativity and bitterness. I would never suggest that we stop internally evaluating what people say in church, we need to be sure of what we believe and sometimes people do make statements that are not doctrinally sound, but I do think that being hypercritical leads us far afield from our primary goal of perfecting ourselves and loving others.

By: Mark Butler

Mark Butler — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:39:41 +0000

From a divine perspective, I hope there is a net benefit to the practice of tithes and offerings tithing, or why have it at all? The useful property of a society of grace is that if everybody freely gives, everyone will freely receive as well.

By: Jared

Jared — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:11:57 +0000

I just noticed there’s already another Jared on here. I’ll be JaredO.

By: Jared

Jared — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:09:34 +0000

Two thoughts:

First, tithing talks are often misleading. Specifically, it seems like about 7 out of 10 approach it from the “pay it and you will get blessings in return” angle. I don’t think that should be the primary motivation. That’s almost Pavlovian. I think there’s more to learn from paying tithing.

Second, I do think it is impossible to have a number one without having a number two. Ranking is ranking, and being “true” doesn’t need to have anything to do with ranking.

By: Mark Butler

Mark Butler — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:50:31 +0000

As I have argued before, it is not what creeds contain so much that makes them an abomination, it is the fact that they are creeds, i.e. legislated and binding upon all members, whether greater right on a subject be available or not.

Remember that the Gentiles (the nations of the world, the West in particular) were made mighty through their belief in Jesus Christ such that the Holy Ghost was poured upon them. See 3 Ne 20:27, D&C 1:24, 2 Ne 31:3.

Now as to churches, of course there should be a balance in these things, but Mormon’s commentary is worth mentioning:

And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
(Morm 8:36-37)

By: Peter

Peter — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:31:44 +0000

Having a band and praise and worship team can lend to the Spirit.

I think it’s disgusting how rock has been co-opted by religion and its message distorted. Leave rock to the rockers and religion to the preachers, I say. Combining the two simply leads to an unnecessary hurling of epithets.