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	<title>Comments on: Accountability; or, Don&#8217;t Vote Republican</title>
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	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/13/accountability/#comment-100900</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Nelson-Seawright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/accountability/#comment-100900</guid>
		<description>Dan, nobody thinks the constitution is a suicide pact.  On the other hand, the acts at Abu Ghraib certainly did meet the definition of torture under international law, and also in the view of noted conservatives including John McCain, John Warner, and others.  Is it a good moral idea for us to betray our own values in this fight?  I think you need to read the Book of Mormon again if you say it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, nobody thinks the constitution is a suicide pact.  On the other hand, the acts at Abu Ghraib certainly did meet the definition of torture under international law, and also in the view of noted conservatives including John McCain, John Warner, and others.  Is it a good moral idea for us to betray our own values in this fight?  I think you need to read the Book of Mormon again if you say it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/13/accountability/#comment-100899</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/accountability/#comment-100899</guid>
		<description>Heavenly Father help us all if the likes of Nancy Pelosi, John Conyers and Barney Frank are able to become the Chairs of important committees like Intelligence, defense etc.  Not that I think that the invasion and removal of Saddam was a good idea - I think it was a horrible decision - I am with Gen Scowcroft on  this one. However, I am not at all impressed that the events at Abu Gharib amounted to &#039;Torture&quot;, and unlike liberals, I dont believe that our Constitution is a suicide pact.
Islamic terrorism is a vicious and serious problem, and anyone who thinks that our society will survive if we have to fight by the Marquis of Queensberry&#039;s rules, is living in a fool&#039;s paradise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heavenly Father help us all if the likes of Nancy Pelosi, John Conyers and Barney Frank are able to become the Chairs of important committees like Intelligence, defense etc.  Not that I think that the invasion and removal of Saddam was a good idea &#8211; I think it was a horrible decision &#8211; I am with Gen Scowcroft on  this one. However, I am not at all impressed that the events at Abu Gharib amounted to &#8216;Torture&#8221;, and unlike liberals, I dont believe that our Constitution is a suicide pact.<br />
Islamic terrorism is a vicious and serious problem, and anyone who thinks that our society will survive if we have to fight by the Marquis of Queensberry&#8217;s rules, is living in a fool&#8217;s paradise.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/13/accountability/#comment-100898</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 03:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/accountability/#comment-100898</guid>
		<description>Fantastic article, Seth. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic article, Seth. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/13/accountability/#comment-100897</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 02:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/accountability/#comment-100897</guid>
		<description>Alan Wolfe wrote an interesting article entitled:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0607.wolfe.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Why Conservatives Can&#039;t Govern&lt;/a&gt;

His premise is that the Republicans were always best-off playing the role of &quot;loyal opposition,&quot; but that their core ideology - anti-federal government - makes them unsuited to run &quot;big government.&quot; How can you run properly, something you never believed in to begin with?

To quote some of the juicier portions of the article:

&lt;blockquote&gt;If government is necessary, bad government, at least for conservatives, is inevitable, and conservatives have been exceptionally good at showing just how bad it can be. Hence the truth revealed by the Bush years: Bad government--indeed, bloated, inefficient, corrupt, and unfair government--is the only kind of conservative government there is. Conservatives cannot govern well for the same reason that vegetarians cannot prepare a world-class boeuf bourguignon: If you believe that what you are called upon to do is wrong, you are not likely to do it very well.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

On Katrina and FEMA:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Long before Katrina destroyed New Orleans, Allbaugh and Brown were busy destroying FEMA: privatizing many of the agency&#039;s programs, shifting attention away from disaster management, and shedding no tears as scores of agency staff left in dismay. Human beings cannot prevent natural disasters, but they can prevent man-made ones. Not the Bush administration. Its ideological hostility toward government all but guaranteed that the physical damage inflicted by a hurricane would be exacerbated by the human damage caused by incompetence.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

On Iraq:

&lt;blockquote&gt;So long as conservatives denigrate government while relying on government to achieve their objectives, Rumsfeld&#039;s vision of how to fight wars is the only kind of conservative foreign policy one can have. His low-balling of troop estimates in Iraq was the foreign policy equivalent of libertarian economics: relying on government while refusing to pay for it. His hostility toward Iraqi reconstruction resonated with those skeptical of rebuilding New Orleans. His disdain for Colin Powell&#039;s State Department mirrored Joe McCarthy&#039;s for Dean Acheson&#039;s. Only a tried-and-true conservative could ever have come up with the idea of turning the management of Iraqi police forces over to private firms to the extent that Rumsfeld did, with catastrophic results for the Iraqis themselves. While it is difficult to label someone who plans a war an isolationist, Rumsfeld&#039;s hostility toward America&#039;s historic allies represented a contemporary version of unilateralism, which has always been isolationism&#039;s first cousin. The neoconservatives wanted to draft hugely expensive undertakings onto a party with an isolationist past. The Secretary of Defense wanted to draft on to the same political party a distant war, but with the promise of being cheap and avoiding the loss of American lives. It is not difficult to conclude which one would win in today&#039;s conservative environment.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The basic problem with Conservativism:

&lt;blockquote&gt;There are ways out of the conservative dilemma. American conservatives could, for example, take away from the Bush years the lesson that they must change their ideology if they are ever again to make the Republican Party a serious party of governance. This is not beyond the realm of possibility. Conservatives in the American past--not only Hamilton and Marshall, but Daniel Webster and Henry Clay--were in favor of a strong government capable of meeting national objectives. There exists, moreover, a modernizing version of conservatism in contemporary Europe, where conservatives recognize the inevitability of government but try to tailor its objectives and improve its competence. Call this &quot;big government conservatism&quot; if you wish, but it would have little in common with that term as President Bush&#039;s critics use it to attack him and his administration. This would not be a conservatism that used government to pay off friends and punish enemies but one that sought to use government to stabilize society and avoid periodic crises.

Admittedly, not much evidence exists in America today that conservatives are prepared to move in such a direction. If anything, they seem to have reinforced and strengthened their determination to govern as incompetently and unfairly as they can. The fact that they will leave behind a public sector in roughly the same condition that strip miners leave hillsides would cause nothing but pain to yesterday&#039;s patricians, for whom ideals such as responsibility and soundness were watchwords. But today&#039;s conservatives have no problem passing on the costs of their present madness to future generations. Governing well would require them to use the bully-pulpit of office to educate and uplift their base. But since contemporary conservatives get their political energy from angry voices of rage and revenge, they will always blame others for the failures built into their ideology. That is why conservatism so rarely makes for a good governance party. As far as conservatives are concerned, it is always someone else&#039;s government, one reason they can be so indifferent to their own mismanagement.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t really oppose a Republican President as a healthy check on government (just not our current Republican President). Neither am I particularly concerned about a some of our states becoming proving grounds for new Republican ideas under powerful conservative oversight. But I absolutely do not want the Republicans in control of our national Congress. Time to vote them out and let them be the &quot;party of opposition&quot; they were always meant to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan Wolfe wrote an interesting article entitled:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0607.wolfe.html" rel="nofollow">Why Conservatives Can&#8217;t Govern</a></p>
<p>His premise is that the Republicans were always best-off playing the role of &#8220;loyal opposition,&#8221; but that their core ideology &#8211; anti-federal government &#8211; makes them unsuited to run &#8220;big government.&#8221; How can you run properly, something you never believed in to begin with?</p>
<p>To quote some of the juicier portions of the article:</p>
<blockquote><p>If government is necessary, bad government, at least for conservatives, is inevitable, and conservatives have been exceptionally good at showing just how bad it can be. Hence the truth revealed by the Bush years: Bad government&#8211;indeed, bloated, inefficient, corrupt, and unfair government&#8211;is the only kind of conservative government there is. Conservatives cannot govern well for the same reason that vegetarians cannot prepare a world-class boeuf bourguignon: If you believe that what you are called upon to do is wrong, you are not likely to do it very well.</p></blockquote>
<p>On Katrina and FEMA:</p>
<blockquote><p>Long before Katrina destroyed New Orleans, Allbaugh and Brown were busy destroying FEMA: privatizing many of the agency&#8217;s programs, shifting attention away from disaster management, and shedding no tears as scores of agency staff left in dismay. Human beings cannot prevent natural disasters, but they can prevent man-made ones. Not the Bush administration. Its ideological hostility toward government all but guaranteed that the physical damage inflicted by a hurricane would be exacerbated by the human damage caused by incompetence.</p></blockquote>
<p>On Iraq:</p>
<blockquote><p>So long as conservatives denigrate government while relying on government to achieve their objectives, Rumsfeld&#8217;s vision of how to fight wars is the only kind of conservative foreign policy one can have. His low-balling of troop estimates in Iraq was the foreign policy equivalent of libertarian economics: relying on government while refusing to pay for it. His hostility toward Iraqi reconstruction resonated with those skeptical of rebuilding New Orleans. His disdain for Colin Powell&#8217;s State Department mirrored Joe McCarthy&#8217;s for Dean Acheson&#8217;s. Only a tried-and-true conservative could ever have come up with the idea of turning the management of Iraqi police forces over to private firms to the extent that Rumsfeld did, with catastrophic results for the Iraqis themselves. While it is difficult to label someone who plans a war an isolationist, Rumsfeld&#8217;s hostility toward America&#8217;s historic allies represented a contemporary version of unilateralism, which has always been isolationism&#8217;s first cousin. The neoconservatives wanted to draft hugely expensive undertakings onto a party with an isolationist past. The Secretary of Defense wanted to draft on to the same political party a distant war, but with the promise of being cheap and avoiding the loss of American lives. It is not difficult to conclude which one would win in today&#8217;s conservative environment.</p></blockquote>
<p>The basic problem with Conservativism:</p>
<blockquote><p>There are ways out of the conservative dilemma. American conservatives could, for example, take away from the Bush years the lesson that they must change their ideology if they are ever again to make the Republican Party a serious party of governance. This is not beyond the realm of possibility. Conservatives in the American past&#8211;not only Hamilton and Marshall, but Daniel Webster and Henry Clay&#8211;were in favor of a strong government capable of meeting national objectives. There exists, moreover, a modernizing version of conservatism in contemporary Europe, where conservatives recognize the inevitability of government but try to tailor its objectives and improve its competence. Call this &#8220;big government conservatism&#8221; if you wish, but it would have little in common with that term as President Bush&#8217;s critics use it to attack him and his administration. This would not be a conservatism that used government to pay off friends and punish enemies but one that sought to use government to stabilize society and avoid periodic crises.</p>
<p>Admittedly, not much evidence exists in America today that conservatives are prepared to move in such a direction. If anything, they seem to have reinforced and strengthened their determination to govern as incompetently and unfairly as they can. The fact that they will leave behind a public sector in roughly the same condition that strip miners leave hillsides would cause nothing but pain to yesterday&#8217;s patricians, for whom ideals such as responsibility and soundness were watchwords. But today&#8217;s conservatives have no problem passing on the costs of their present madness to future generations. Governing well would require them to use the bully-pulpit of office to educate and uplift their base. But since contemporary conservatives get their political energy from angry voices of rage and revenge, they will always blame others for the failures built into their ideology. That is why conservatism so rarely makes for a good governance party. As far as conservatives are concerned, it is always someone else&#8217;s government, one reason they can be so indifferent to their own mismanagement.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t really oppose a Republican President as a healthy check on government (just not our current Republican President). Neither am I particularly concerned about a some of our states becoming proving grounds for new Republican ideas under powerful conservative oversight. But I absolutely do not want the Republicans in control of our national Congress. Time to vote them out and let them be the &#8220;party of opposition&#8221; they were always meant to be.</p>
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		<title>By: NoelHausler</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/13/accountability/#comment-100757</link>
		<dc:creator>NoelHausler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 04:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/accountability/#comment-100757</guid>
		<description>I have been watching the Daily Show on YourTube.com with the various debates and discussions Jon Stewart has. It seems Americans have what to those of us in the UK and Australia a reverant attitude towards your President no matter what he does. Jon Stewart has been able to show just through the replaying of various clips the contradictions made by the Administration. The Foley affair was a classic. How come when someone gets caught they are suddenly going in rehab, they were abused by a Priest blah blah..... Americans have become involved in a war that started with lies. I watch Newshour here in Australia and often at the end  they list those who died that week etc. Young men, 20s 30s no chance of a life dead for some cause that future historians may question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been watching the Daily Show on YourTube.com with the various debates and discussions Jon Stewart has. It seems Americans have what to those of us in the UK and Australia a reverant attitude towards your President no matter what he does. Jon Stewart has been able to show just through the replaying of various clips the contradictions made by the Administration. The Foley affair was a classic. How come when someone gets caught they are suddenly going in rehab, they were abused by a Priest blah blah&#8230;.. Americans have become involved in a war that started with lies. I watch Newshour here in Australia and often at the end  they list those who died that week etc. Young men, 20s 30s no chance of a life dead for some cause that future historians may question.</p>
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		<title>By: mami</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/13/accountability/#comment-100896</link>
		<dc:creator>mami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 02:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/accountability/#comment-100896</guid>
		<description>Bill-
 I meant to say that the Republicans had a heyday finding lots of scandal when Clinton was in office. It appears that for the past couple of decades at least, the minority has found lots of ways to convict the majority. Perhaps the majority simply does not do this because they are secure in their stronghold at the moment--being that the white house or the congress or the senate. But I do not think there is sufficient evidence by either party to convict the other of being innately corrupt, and maintain that they themselves are innocent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill-<br />
 I meant to say that the Republicans had a heyday finding lots of scandal when Clinton was in office. It appears that for the past couple of decades at least, the minority has found lots of ways to convict the majority. Perhaps the majority simply does not do this because they are secure in their stronghold at the moment&#8211;being that the white house or the congress or the senate. But I do not think there is sufficient evidence by either party to convict the other of being innately corrupt, and maintain that they themselves are innocent.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/13/accountability/#comment-100895</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 01:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/accountability/#comment-100895</guid>
		<description>Jeremy

Economists as fight club might actually be a really good way to look at it.

Kaimi,

I actually thought I put something like your comment in one of my comments, but I guess I deleted it when I was editing.  So I&#039;m glad you made the point clear.  I brought up the Supreme Court in the discussion to show:

1. Jason an example of why ideology of both Parties matters for this election, not just the party in power.

2. To point out to Jeremy that his &quot;Bush Administration=all that is evil&quot; analysis was missing something.

I certainly am not under the impression that SC nominees have to go through the House!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy</p>
<p>Economists as fight club might actually be a really good way to look at it.</p>
<p>Kaimi,</p>
<p>I actually thought I put something like your comment in one of my comments, but I guess I deleted it when I was editing.  So I&#8217;m glad you made the point clear.  I brought up the Supreme Court in the discussion to show:</p>
<p>1. Jason an example of why ideology of both Parties matters for this election, not just the party in power.</p>
<p>2. To point out to Jeremy that his &#8220;Bush Administration=all that is evil&#8221; analysis was missing something.</p>
<p>I certainly am not under the impression that SC nominees have to go through the House!</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/13/accountability/#comment-100894</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 00:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/accountability/#comment-100894</guid>
		<description>Mami, whether or not the Democrats had a &quot;hey day&quot; when Clinton was in office, they were in the minority for six of the eight years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mami, whether or not the Democrats had a &#8220;hey day&#8221; when Clinton was in office, they were in the minority for six of the eight years.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/13/accountability/#comment-100893</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 00:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/accountability/#comment-100893</guid>
		<description>HP/JDC,

I never said &quot;inherently.&quot;  Just, as of late, &lt;i&gt;empirically.&lt;/i&gt;

It really gets back to JNS&#039;s original post: the party in power has been corrupted by that power, and voting against them will not only counter that corruption, but (at least for a time) discourage or at the very least delay subsequent corruption.  In other words, rewarding either party with reelection after a period of widespread corruption rewards not just that party, but corrupt politics in general.  It so happens that right now, the GOP is in power and is crippled by corruption--and the scrutiny that corruption has brought would put the dems on notice if they gain power in November.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HP/JDC,</p>
<p>I never said &#8220;inherently.&#8221;  Just, as of late, <i>empirically.</i></p>
<p>It really gets back to JNS&#8217;s original post: the party in power has been corrupted by that power, and voting against them will not only counter that corruption, but (at least for a time) discourage or at the very least delay subsequent corruption.  In other words, rewarding either party with reelection after a period of widespread corruption rewards not just that party, but corrupt politics in general.  It so happens that right now, the GOP is in power and is crippled by corruption&#8211;and the scrutiny that corruption has brought would put the dems on notice if they gain power in November.</p>
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		<title>By: HP/JDC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/13/accountability/#comment-100892</link>
		<dc:creator>HP/JDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 00:28:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/accountability/#comment-100892</guid>
		<description>Jeremy,
You are not going to convince me that one of the two major parties is inherently more corrupt than the other.  I am on record as being a third party voter and most of the reason I did it had to do with disgust regarding both major parties.  Both parties when in power attempt to work the system to see that they remain in power.  I can&#039;t say that I like it, but I find it highly unlikely that it is going to change (politicians knowing a good thing when they see it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,<br />
You are not going to convince me that one of the two major parties is inherently more corrupt than the other.  I am on record as being a third party voter and most of the reason I did it had to do with disgust regarding both major parties.  Both parties when in power attempt to work the system to see that they remain in power.  I can&#8217;t say that I like it, but I find it highly unlikely that it is going to change (politicians knowing a good thing when they see it).</p>
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