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	<title>Comments on: Children who pass away</title>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Royal</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/24/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63142</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Royal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 05:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63142</guid>
		<description>The real problem with child salvation is justifying the Mormon theodicy.  Typical theodicies justifying Godâ€™s allowance of evil to create a logically necessary greater good.  This would involve the school of thought which believed the souls of men were being built through the experiences of life. Unfortunately, they fail to take into account Godâ€™s power of creation ex nihilo, allowing Him to create a perfect world where his creations have free will and perfect natures, never choosing to do wrong.  Joseph circumvented this problem by redefining Godâ€™s omnipotence to not include creation ex nihilo.  He suggests the existence of co-eternal realities with God, such as chaos, universal laws, and intelligences (primal persons).   These co-eternal realities restricts Godâ€™s abilities to prevent evils which are (i) absolutely unpreventable, (ii) preventable, but not by God or (iii) necessary to create a greater good, namely in soul building.  Hence, God is no longer responsible for mankindâ€™s nature or its sins.  Unfortunately, thereâ€™s a problemâ€”how are the souls of little children (or those with mental handicaps) built who die so soon in coming to Earth?  In the simple Book of Mormon eschatology with only the traditional Christian heaven and hell after a resurrection, it was easy to suggest they went to Heaven, for the alternative was unbearable.  However, once a multi-layered eschatology was suggested, things became complicated for this doctrine.  Where did little children lie now?  Josephâ€™s 137 revelation still placed them in the celestial kingdom, but did not suggest there ability to progress infinitely in the highest degree.  And it was a dangerous suggestionâ€¦ How would such a case be fair?  So prophets seemed to waffle in their opinionsâ€”do they grow? Do they progress?  Are they double-veiled (they go to the spirit world, are super intelligent, and then re-enter into a body in the millennium and have a veil placed on them again?  Or is it one continuous veil?)? No revelation or easy explanation was in place.

Saying â€œthey were too pure, too lovely, to live on earth,â€ means absolutely nothing.  For how are the souls of little children who die built by coming here?  A doctrine commonly held is they donâ€™t.  Instead, they claim the need for a physical body as the reason for their advent, but it seems quite possible for children to receive bodies without coming to this wicked world.

But even if they needed to come here to receive a body, they have not proved themselves to God to inherit the second estate.  Children may be innocent, but they hardly demonstrate a moral rectitude, which mirrors God.  Perhaps they have already achieved such a nature before this life.  Does God then, as Kent P. Jackson has suggested, have to send celestial beings into all the infant bodies he foreknows will perish to remain impartial?   Personally, I think this view of Godâ€™s foreknowledge is ridiculous, and so are any suggestions of absolute exhaustive specific foreknowledge.  Libertarian free will is incompatible with such a view.

But such a suggestion leads to more dangerous considerations.  If such infants achieved perfection through divine acquisition before this life, what is the need for this world in the soul building process at all?  If there was an easier way to achieve Godâ€™s eternal life, without the massive pains, evils, and sufferings of this world, would we not have avoided coming here?  Perhaps we learn quicker here on earth, but statements differ on the matter.  For instance, Joseph posited â€œWhatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.â€  From this view, earthly experience could imprint upon us a benefit in the next world.  However, Brigham Young declared, â€œI shall not cease learning while I live, nor when I arrive in the spirit-world; but shall there learn with greater facilityâ€¦â€  Under this system, it appears more beneficial to learn within the spirit world than through extended life on earth. Even if a specific type of knowledge is gained through the earthly experience, it is doubtful an infant could acquire it.  It appears some are unjustly exposed to evil in the soul building process, while others circumvent the program altogether.   Did Herodâ€™s massacre of the infants at Bethlehem achieve more of the purposes of God than the work of hundreds of missionaries?

To counter my argument, it may be a full scale revelation has not yet come, but this does not solve the philosophical problem.  Perhaps, upon the principle of â€œline upon line, precept upon
precept,â€ the doctrine of infant salvation will be filled out.  An ancient pseudipigraphic document, the Apocalypse of Peter, describes a further understanding of child salvation.  Clement of
Alexandriaâ€™s explication of the text states:

The children born out of due timeâ€¦ that would have been of the better part (i. e. would have received salvation) are delivered to a care-taking angel, that they may partake of knowledge and obtain the better abode, having suffered what they would have suffered had they been in the body. But the others (who would not received salvation, had they lived) shall only obtain salvation, as beings that have been injured and had mercy shown to them, and shall continue without torment, receiving that as a reward.

Hence, this demonstrates how child salvation has been a difficult topic for Christianity and theism since its conception.  I am personally of the opinion that the plan of salvation is dumbed down too much and over emphasis is placed on this world as a place of testing.  If people think the next life is a world on heroine (full of joy and easy), I think they are wrong.  The journey through eternity and the process towards exaltation is a long one, which will include many struggles with natural and moral evil, and requirements for personal growth.  It is possible the Prophet Joseph Smith included the mentoring of deceased infants for exaltation when he expressed our need to work on our godhood and exaltation far beyond this life.  My opinion of child salvation is that their early deaths will not hold them back from progressing into the celestial kingdom.  But if they will progress forward, they will need all the necessary ordinances and experiences to move forward in their glory.  But as it stands, without entering the realm of speculation, the doctrine of child salvation undermines soul building and the Mormon theodicy.

Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real problem with child salvation is justifying the Mormon theodicy.  Typical theodicies justifying Godâ€™s allowance of evil to create a logically necessary greater good.  This would involve the school of thought which believed the souls of men were being built through the experiences of life. Unfortunately, they fail to take into account Godâ€™s power of creation ex nihilo, allowing Him to create a perfect world where his creations have free will and perfect natures, never choosing to do wrong.  Joseph circumvented this problem by redefining Godâ€™s omnipotence to not include creation ex nihilo.  He suggests the existence of co-eternal realities with God, such as chaos, universal laws, and intelligences (primal persons).   These co-eternal realities restricts Godâ€™s abilities to prevent evils which are (i) absolutely unpreventable, (ii) preventable, but not by God or (iii) necessary to create a greater good, namely in soul building.  Hence, God is no longer responsible for mankindâ€™s nature or its sins.  Unfortunately, thereâ€™s a problemâ€”how are the souls of little children (or those with mental handicaps) built who die so soon in coming to Earth?  In the simple Book of Mormon eschatology with only the traditional Christian heaven and hell after a resurrection, it was easy to suggest they went to Heaven, for the alternative was unbearable.  However, once a multi-layered eschatology was suggested, things became complicated for this doctrine.  Where did little children lie now?  Josephâ€™s 137 revelation still placed them in the celestial kingdom, but did not suggest there ability to progress infinitely in the highest degree.  And it was a dangerous suggestionâ€¦ How would such a case be fair?  So prophets seemed to waffle in their opinionsâ€”do they grow? Do they progress?  Are they double-veiled (they go to the spirit world, are super intelligent, and then re-enter into a body in the millennium and have a veil placed on them again?  Or is it one continuous veil?)? No revelation or easy explanation was in place.</p>
<p>Saying â€œthey were too pure, too lovely, to live on earth,â€ means absolutely nothing.  For how are the souls of little children who die built by coming here?  A doctrine commonly held is they donâ€™t.  Instead, they claim the need for a physical body as the reason for their advent, but it seems quite possible for children to receive bodies without coming to this wicked world.</p>
<p>But even if they needed to come here to receive a body, they have not proved themselves to God to inherit the second estate.  Children may be innocent, but they hardly demonstrate a moral rectitude, which mirrors God.  Perhaps they have already achieved such a nature before this life.  Does God then, as Kent P. Jackson has suggested, have to send celestial beings into all the infant bodies he foreknows will perish to remain impartial?   Personally, I think this view of Godâ€™s foreknowledge is ridiculous, and so are any suggestions of absolute exhaustive specific foreknowledge.  Libertarian free will is incompatible with such a view.</p>
<p>But such a suggestion leads to more dangerous considerations.  If such infants achieved perfection through divine acquisition before this life, what is the need for this world in the soul building process at all?  If there was an easier way to achieve Godâ€™s eternal life, without the massive pains, evils, and sufferings of this world, would we not have avoided coming here?  Perhaps we learn quicker here on earth, but statements differ on the matter.  For instance, Joseph posited â€œWhatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.â€  From this view, earthly experience could imprint upon us a benefit in the next world.  However, Brigham Young declared, â€œI shall not cease learning while I live, nor when I arrive in the spirit-world; but shall there learn with greater facilityâ€¦â€  Under this system, it appears more beneficial to learn within the spirit world than through extended life on earth. Even if a specific type of knowledge is gained through the earthly experience, it is doubtful an infant could acquire it.  It appears some are unjustly exposed to evil in the soul building process, while others circumvent the program altogether.   Did Herodâ€™s massacre of the infants at Bethlehem achieve more of the purposes of God than the work of hundreds of missionaries?</p>
<p>To counter my argument, it may be a full scale revelation has not yet come, but this does not solve the philosophical problem.  Perhaps, upon the principle of â€œline upon line, precept upon<br />
precept,â€ the doctrine of infant salvation will be filled out.  An ancient pseudipigraphic document, the Apocalypse of Peter, describes a further understanding of child salvation.  Clement of<br />
Alexandriaâ€™s explication of the text states:</p>
<p>The children born out of due timeâ€¦ that would have been of the better part (i. e. would have received salvation) are delivered to a care-taking angel, that they may partake of knowledge and obtain the better abode, having suffered what they would have suffered had they been in the body. But the others (who would not received salvation, had they lived) shall only obtain salvation, as beings that have been injured and had mercy shown to them, and shall continue without torment, receiving that as a reward.</p>
<p>Hence, this demonstrates how child salvation has been a difficult topic for Christianity and theism since its conception.  I am personally of the opinion that the plan of salvation is dumbed down too much and over emphasis is placed on this world as a place of testing.  If people think the next life is a world on heroine (full of joy and easy), I think they are wrong.  The journey through eternity and the process towards exaltation is a long one, which will include many struggles with natural and moral evil, and requirements for personal growth.  It is possible the Prophet Joseph Smith included the mentoring of deceased infants for exaltation when he expressed our need to work on our godhood and exaltation far beyond this life.  My opinion of child salvation is that their early deaths will not hold them back from progressing into the celestial kingdom.  But if they will progress forward, they will need all the necessary ordinances and experiences to move forward in their glory.  But as it stands, without entering the realm of speculation, the doctrine of child salvation undermines soul building and the Mormon theodicy.</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/24/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63141</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 16:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63141</guid>
		<description>Well, you&#039;ve convinced me to make a go of it.  After I finish the BY Office Journal and appendices, with which Collier used to take a swipe at Bergera&#039;s treatment I&#039;ll go for &lt;em&gt;Conflict in the Quorum&lt;/em&gt; in total.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you&#8217;ve convinced me to make a go of it.  After I finish the BY Office Journal and appendices, with which Collier used to take a swipe at Bergera&#8217;s treatment I&#8217;ll go for <em>Conflict in the Quorum</em> in total.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/24/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63140</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Nelson-Seawright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 13:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63140</guid>
		<description>J., you should perhaps take another look at &lt;em&gt;Conflict in the Quorum&lt;/em&gt; regarding this topic.  Pratt&#039;s defense of the idea that children will be resurrected as they are and then grow into adulthood was one of his points of conflict with Brigham Young and the rest of the Twelve.  He was censured by the other 14 Apostles over his teachings on this subject, which they called &quot;baby resurrection.&quot;  That level of debate seems to give Pratt credit as the major public advocate of the doctrine; whether Joseph came to advocate it in private between the King Follett discourse and his death is, of course, undecideable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J., you should perhaps take another look at <em>Conflict in the Quorum</em> regarding this topic.  Pratt&#8217;s defense of the idea that children will be resurrected as they are and then grow into adulthood was one of his points of conflict with Brigham Young and the rest of the Twelve.  He was censured by the other 14 Apostles over his teachings on this subject, which they called &#8220;baby resurrection.&#8221;  That level of debate seems to give Pratt credit as the major public advocate of the doctrine; whether Joseph came to advocate it in private between the King Follett discourse and his death is, of course, undecideable.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/24/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63139</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 04:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63139</guid>
		<description>Excellent pull, JNS.  My favorite quote from that discourse:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Nephi says-&quot;I ponder upon the things of God continually which he has revealed unto me,&quot; and there is no harm for us to do the same. We should not get into that old sectarian notion, that we have no right to know anything about this, that or the other, and that we must not pry into this, that or the other. That is an old sectarian notion, which we have fought against all the day long, and we do not want it to creep into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I still am uncertain as to who was the first real advocate for growth after the resurrection.  I have not read all of &lt;em&gt;Conflict in the Quorum&lt;/em&gt;, but Orson refers to others who say the Joseph received more light before he died but that he (Orson) didn&#039;t know or not whether that was the case.  Also he doesn&#039;t get into the Millennium at all, which makes sense, but that seems to be a big portion of contemporary popular belief.

I definitely do agree that Orson&#039;s views are severely under-appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent pull, JNS.  My favorite quote from that discourse:</p>
<blockquote><p>Nephi says-&#8221;I ponder upon the things of God continually which he has revealed unto me,&#8221; and there is no harm for us to do the same. We should not get into that old sectarian notion, that we have no right to know anything about this, that or the other, and that we must not pry into this, that or the other. That is an old sectarian notion, which we have fought against all the day long, and we do not want it to creep into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.</p></blockquote>
<p>I still am uncertain as to who was the first real advocate for growth after the resurrection.  I have not read all of <em>Conflict in the Quorum</em>, but Orson refers to others who say the Joseph received more light before he died but that he (Orson) didn&#8217;t know or not whether that was the case.  Also he doesn&#8217;t get into the Millennium at all, which makes sense, but that seems to be a big portion of contemporary popular belief.</p>
<p>I definitely do agree that Orson&#8217;s views are severely under-appreciated.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/24/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63138</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Nelson-Seawright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 03:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63138</guid>
		<description>Is it perhaps worth quickly noting that Orson Pratt seems to have been the source for the idea, found in some of Joseph F. Smith&#039;s affadavits, that children who died would grow to full adult stature after the resurrection.  See discussion in Gary James Bergera, &lt;em&gt;Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith&lt;/em&gt;, page 96.  Pratt&#039;s ideas on this subject -- and his dismissal of Joseph Smith&#039;s teachings as not informed by definitive revelation -- are especially clear in &lt;a href=&quot;http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_16/JD16-326.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this 1873 sermon&lt;/a&gt; (the relevant material begins a bit past half-way down the text).

Orson Pratt&#039;s various contributions to modern Mormon theological thought are generally under-appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it perhaps worth quickly noting that Orson Pratt seems to have been the source for the idea, found in some of Joseph F. Smith&#8217;s affadavits, that children who died would grow to full adult stature after the resurrection.  See discussion in Gary James Bergera, <em>Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith</em>, page 96.  Pratt&#8217;s ideas on this subject &#8212; and his dismissal of Joseph Smith&#8217;s teachings as not informed by definitive revelation &#8212; are especially clear in <a href="http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_16/JD16-326.html" rel="nofollow">this 1873 sermon</a> (the relevant material begins a bit past half-way down the text).</p>
<p>Orson Pratt&#8217;s various contributions to modern Mormon theological thought are generally under-appreciated.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/24/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63119</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 14:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63119</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe I will get my child back at the age of two, which is the age he was when he died.  It doesn&#039;t make sense to me that his spirit is more exalted than mine (which I firmly believe), that he died 33 years ago, and when I die, will be greeted by his exalted adult spirit.  Then whenever the resurrection comes, he will go back into that tiny body and start over?

Joseph Smith said that the truth &quot;tastes good.&quot;  You know it.  I believe he wanted those things to be true, I believe there is an element of truth in them, but ultimately, he said a lot of things hoping to comfort mothers.

And I don&#039;t believe it.  I think I lost my child forever.  He&#039;s now an adult spirit and will be resurrected as an adult.

But wait, his body is small.  Well, it will grow fast or something.  I still think we haven&#039;t hit on the truth of the situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe I will get my child back at the age of two, which is the age he was when he died.  It doesn&#8217;t make sense to me that his spirit is more exalted than mine (which I firmly believe), that he died 33 years ago, and when I die, will be greeted by his exalted adult spirit.  Then whenever the resurrection comes, he will go back into that tiny body and start over?</p>
<p>Joseph Smith said that the truth &#8220;tastes good.&#8221;  You know it.  I believe he wanted those things to be true, I believe there is an element of truth in them, but ultimately, he said a lot of things hoping to comfort mothers.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t believe it.  I think I lost my child forever.  He&#8217;s now an adult spirit and will be resurrected as an adult.</p>
<p>But wait, his body is small.  Well, it will grow fast or something.  I still think we haven&#8217;t hit on the truth of the situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Park</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/24/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63137</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Park</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63137</guid>
		<description>I apologize if this sounds flippant, but if I or anyone else were to die in some catastrophic way that involved dismemberment, I think it&#039;s fair to assume we&#039;d be made whole somehow.  It wouldn&#039;t be an exact resurrection of the way we went down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I apologize if this sounds flippant, but if I or anyone else were to die in some catastrophic way that involved dismemberment, I think it&#8217;s fair to assume we&#8217;d be made whole somehow.  It wouldn&#8217;t be an exact resurrection of the way we went down.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/24/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63136</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63136</guid>
		<description>J.- Perhaps it is up to us to get our own revelatory clarification.

I believe in what SWK said, but the question then becomes, &quot;Why Temple Work for the Dead?&quot; for this, I can only postulate theories, and I&#039;m not prone to doing such.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J.- Perhaps it is up to us to get our own revelatory clarification.</p>
<p>I believe in what SWK said, but the question then becomes, &#8220;Why Temple Work for the Dead?&#8221; for this, I can only postulate theories, and I&#8217;m not prone to doing such.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/24/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63135</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63135</guid>
		<description>Matt, that is a great example and I think that it is representative of the current consensus among the heirarchy of the Church.  The Saints, above all, believe in a God that we perseive good, fair and just.  There is no doctrine or idea that is too sacred to be felled by this conception.  The result is that the door that was opened a crack by the repeal of the Law of Adoption has swung open and the door fallen off its hinges.  I&#039;m not saying this is a bad thing, but the natural result, without a revelatory clarification, is simply a giant mass of speculation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, that is a great example and I think that it is representative of the current consensus among the heirarchy of the Church.  The Saints, above all, believe in a God that we perseive good, fair and just.  There is no doctrine or idea that is too sacred to be felled by this conception.  The result is that the door that was opened a crack by the repeal of the Law of Adoption has swung open and the door fallen off its hinges.  I&#8217;m not saying this is a bad thing, but the natural result, without a revelatory clarification, is simply a giant mass of speculation.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/24/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63134</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/children-who-pass-away/#comment-63134</guid>
		<description>Interesting Post- I think Spencer W. Kimball resolved all of this when he was president of the Church though.

He said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;we promise you that insofar as eternity is concerned, no soul will be deprived of rich and high and eternal blessings for anything which that person could not help&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting Post- I think Spencer W. Kimball resolved all of this when he was president of the Church though.</p>
<p>He said:</p>
<blockquote><p>we promise you that insofar as eternity is concerned, no soul will be deprived of rich and high and eternal blessings for anything which that person could not help</p></blockquote>
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