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	<title>Comments on: Deseret Part Deux</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19091</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 15:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[HP, good point about the consonant clusters.  That limits the usefulness of Hugh&#039;s example to some extent.

I would qualify your &quot;very unlikely&quot; with something like &quot;based on known ancient Semitic linguistic processes.&quot;  In my original article, I gave three reasons why there are other processes at play that make this more of an unknown wild card situation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HP, good point about the consonant clusters.  That limits the usefulness of Hugh&#8217;s example to some extent.</p>
<p>I would qualify your &#8220;very unlikely&#8221; with something like &#8220;based on known ancient Semitic linguistic processes.&#8221;  In my original article, I gave three reasons why there are other processes at play that make this more of an unknown wild card situation.</p>
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		<title>By: HP/JDC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19090</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HP/JDC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin,
&lt;em&gt;dafter -&gt; dastar&lt;/em&gt; is much more likely because it isn&#039;t uncommon for consonant clusters to assimilate (all that shift indicates is a shift in location for a voiceless fricative in order to make it easier to get to the beginning of the next syllable).  The &lt;em&gt;b -&gt; s&lt;/em&gt; shift in &lt;em&gt;*dbr -&gt; *dsr&lt;/em&gt; wouldn&#039;t have the same motivation (the shift doesn&#039;t make it any easier to say the following r).  Also, there is, in all likelihood, a vowel between the s and r in original &lt;em&gt;*dsr&lt;/em&gt;, providing another obstacle for your proposal.  This doesn&#039;t make it impossible, of course, just very unlikely.

Randy,
You are assuming that Jared and his crew were speaking Adamic originally, which isn&#039;t an assumption that we have to make.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,<br />
<em>dafter -&gt; dastar</em> is much more likely because it isn&#8217;t uncommon for consonant clusters to assimilate (all that shift indicates is a shift in location for a voiceless fricative in order to make it easier to get to the beginning of the next syllable).  The <em>b -&gt; s</em> shift in <em>*dbr -&gt; *dsr</em> wouldn&#8217;t have the same motivation (the shift doesn&#8217;t make it any easier to say the following r).  Also, there is, in all likelihood, a vowel between the s and r in original <em>*dsr</em>, providing another obstacle for your proposal.  This doesn&#8217;t make it impossible, of course, just very unlikely.</p>
<p>Randy,<br />
You are assuming that Jared and his crew were speaking Adamic originally, which isn&#8217;t an assumption that we have to make.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19077</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Randy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 07:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19077</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have just discovered this website and it looks great. I have just one question. Is deseret a Jaredite or a Nephite word? If it is a Jaredite word then this word would be an original word from the language of Adam. If it is a Nephite word then it might be a corruption of a Hebrew word that had  a similar sound and spelling. I have not studied this word in depth but it seems to me that if this is a direct translation of the Jaredite record then this would be an original word from the Adamic language and if this word was used in the Semitic languages at the tower of Babel this word would become corrupted over time just as B.H. Roberts suggests.
Just some thoughts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have just discovered this website and it looks great. I have just one question. Is deseret a Jaredite or a Nephite word? If it is a Jaredite word then this word would be an original word from the language of Adam. If it is a Nephite word then it might be a corruption of a Hebrew word that had  a similar sound and spelling. I have not studied this word in depth but it seems to me that if this is a direct translation of the Jaredite record then this would be an original word from the Adamic language and if this word was used in the Semitic languages at the tower of Babel this word would become corrupted over time just as B.H. Roberts suggests.<br />
Just some thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark IV</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19089</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark IV]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 04:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin, thanks, this is outstanding.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, thanks, this is outstanding.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19088</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 04:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19088</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Linguistic processes can happen pretty quickly.  We go from *ky or *chy to -tt- in Attic to -ss- in Ionic, as seen in

Attic  thalatta  sea
Ionic  thalassa  sea

Attic  glotta  tongue
Ionic  glossa  tongue

Attic  tettares  four
Ionic  tessares  four

Admittedly, in this case the -tt- and the -ss- are both alveolars, and we have an extensive literature in both dialects to study, so we have some understanding of the linguistic development.  But what if all we had were Attic literature, and a single rogue occurrence of &lt;em&gt;thalassa&lt;/em&gt;?  It wouldn&#039;t be so easy to figure out what was going on, but we wouldn&#039;t reject the authenticiy of the rogue orthography; we would start from the assumption there was a good linguistic reason for it.

Yes, that the b and s are different classes of consonant complicates the linguistics considerably.  I agree with that.  But as Nibley showed, Arabic (a Semitic language) &lt;em&gt;daftar &lt;/em&gt;also appears as &lt;em&gt;dastar&lt;/em&gt;, and that is a change that didn&#039;t take thousands of years to happen.

I think it is possible that there is a linguistic process at work here that we simply do not understand.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Linguistic processes can happen pretty quickly.  We go from *ky or *chy to -tt- in Attic to -ss- in Ionic, as seen in</p>
<p>Attic  thalatta  sea<br />
Ionic  thalassa  sea</p>
<p>Attic  glotta  tongue<br />
Ionic  glossa  tongue</p>
<p>Attic  tettares  four<br />
Ionic  tessares  four</p>
<p>Admittedly, in this case the -tt- and the -ss- are both alveolars, and we have an extensive literature in both dialects to study, so we have some understanding of the linguistic development.  But what if all we had were Attic literature, and a single rogue occurrence of <em>thalassa</em>?  It wouldn&#8217;t be so easy to figure out what was going on, but we wouldn&#8217;t reject the authenticiy of the rogue orthography; we would start from the assumption there was a good linguistic reason for it.</p>
<p>Yes, that the b and s are different classes of consonant complicates the linguistics considerably.  I agree with that.  But as Nibley showed, Arabic (a Semitic language) <em>daftar </em>also appears as <em>dastar</em>, and that is a change that didn&#8217;t take thousands of years to happen.</p>
<p>I think it is possible that there is a linguistic process at work here that we simply do not understand.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19087</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[smb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 02:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Agreed, a great piece of memorabilia and a useful application of blogdom, but my original concern that the conversion of dbr-&gt;dsr would require much longer time than is available i believe is important.  Nibley&#039;s free association wouldn&#039;t pass muster in a historical linguistics conference largely on those grounds.  Given several millennia you can get almost any change, but you don&#039;t have several millennia for this change, not if you are expecting the Nephites to speak sufficient Hebrew that the brass plates would make any sense.
And a nagging voice tells me that the Zebul/Zebub variants aren&#039;t precedent-setting in the way hoped for, though I could of course be wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, a great piece of memorabilia and a useful application of blogdom, but my original concern that the conversion of dbr-&gt;dsr would require much longer time than is available i believe is important.  Nibley&#8217;s free association wouldn&#8217;t pass muster in a historical linguistics conference largely on those grounds.  Given several millennia you can get almost any change, but you don&#8217;t have several millennia for this change, not if you are expecting the Nephites to speak sufficient Hebrew that the brass plates would make any sense.<br />
And a nagging voice tells me that the Zebul/Zebub variants aren&#8217;t precedent-setting in the way hoped for, though I could of course be wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19076</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt W.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Nov 2006 20:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19076</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I feel like I just won at show and tell or something...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel like I just won at show and tell or something&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19086</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Nov 2006 19:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19086</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, it really is amazing, Ronan.  This has been tremendous fun.

The &quot;no time for deep stuff&quot; bit reminds me of a Fox Trot comic strip that reran in the paper the other day.  It originally ran on Nov. 11, 2003.

Jason is going to pass a football, and tells Marcus to &quot;go deep.&quot; Marcus responds with a paradox on free will and preordination [the kind we often debate in the &#039;Nacle]. &quot;Too deep,&quot; says Jason.  So Marcus comes back with &quot;If Batman died, would the Joker be happy?&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it really is amazing, Ronan.  This has been tremendous fun.</p>
<p>The &#8220;no time for deep stuff&#8221; bit reminds me of a Fox Trot comic strip that reran in the paper the other day.  It originally ran on Nov. 11, 2003.</p>
<p>Jason is going to pass a football, and tells Marcus to &#8220;go deep.&#8221; Marcus responds with a paradox on free will and preordination [the kind we often debate in the 'Nacle]. &#8220;Too deep,&#8221; says Jason.  So Marcus comes back with &#8220;If Batman died, would the Joker be happy?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19085</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19085</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ladies and Gentlemen,
The power of the blog.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ladies and Gentlemen,<br />
The power of the blog.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/07/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19078</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/deseret-part-deux/#comment-19078</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Justin, I was not aware of that Roberts quote.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Justin, I was not aware of that Roberts quote.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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