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	<title>Comments on: Realistic Expectations</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/#comment-68743</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 19:10:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/realistic-expectations/#comment-68743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[-- that&#039;s me expressing my gratitude, btw.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8211; that&#8217;s me expressing my gratitude, btw.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/#comment-68742</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 19:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/realistic-expectations/#comment-68742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[LOL -- of all the comments on all the posts in all the world, Aaron takes the time to respond to my ill-informed rant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL &#8212; of all the comments on all the posts in all the world, Aaron takes the time to respond to my ill-informed rant.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Brown</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/#comment-68741</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron Brown]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/realistic-expectations/#comment-68741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I see no reason why we should abandon our efforts to correct incorrect publications or reverse errors made by journalists.&quot;

Oh, come on, Steve.  Like I advocated this!  Re-read the post, why don&#039;t cha.

Aaron B

P.S.  Am on vacation, and so don&#039;t have time to respond to anybody else right now ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I see no reason why we should abandon our efforts to correct incorrect publications or reverse errors made by journalists.&#8221;</p>
<p>Oh, come on, Steve.  Like I advocated this!  Re-read the post, why don&#8217;t cha.</p>
<p>Aaron B</p>
<p>P.S.  Am on vacation, and so don&#8217;t have time to respond to anybody else right now &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Osborn</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/#comment-68740</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rob Osborn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Nov 2006 05:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/realistic-expectations/#comment-68740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would just add the the definition of our religion is summed up nicely in our articles of faith- For instance- On questions pertaining to the plan of salvation, 3 &amp; 4 give it perfectly. The problem outsiders and ourselves have is that there is a major issue with defining all of the little parts that make up the whole. Things like the word phrases &quot;eternal life&quot; or &quot;salvation&quot; or even &quot;spiritual death&quot; can have very differing definitions depending on who said it and the circumstances around it at the time it was explained. Almost every printed reference, dictionary or teachers manual published by the Church has a slightly different stance on all of these little definitions that make up the whole.

From this it is easy to understand where we get so confused in defining our beliefs. Should our doctrine be as simple as the articles of faith? You bet. Why aren&#039;t they? Because everyone in authority in the church or who has power to make something authoritive has to add to it and try to clarify something that does not need clarifying. Why do we not come up with something like BRM &quot;Mormon Doctrine&quot; then? Because the authoritive Brethren will probably never be able to agree on all of the little parts that make up the whole and be correct in all things at the same time. This church we have to remember is one that is still growing and evolving and one that continues to be enlightened daily in advancing the doctrine more perfectly.

It is thus my opinion that when we define &quot;mormonism&quot; we should always look at it from the view of what we currently believe in but in doing so that perception might change in the future. This does not hold well with critics or even ourselves, but at the same time we should be open to the facts that since Joseph Smith first organized this church, we have continually changed our methods of ordinances, worship and purpose that today does not resemble the definition of what Mormonism was viewed at a 100 years ago.

I do wish that we could somehow get together on the core doctrine of the plan of salvation and get that set in concrete though as that part will never change.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would just add the the definition of our religion is summed up nicely in our articles of faith- For instance- On questions pertaining to the plan of salvation, 3 &amp; 4 give it perfectly. The problem outsiders and ourselves have is that there is a major issue with defining all of the little parts that make up the whole. Things like the word phrases &#8220;eternal life&#8221; or &#8220;salvation&#8221; or even &#8220;spiritual death&#8221; can have very differing definitions depending on who said it and the circumstances around it at the time it was explained. Almost every printed reference, dictionary or teachers manual published by the Church has a slightly different stance on all of these little definitions that make up the whole.</p>
<p>From this it is easy to understand where we get so confused in defining our beliefs. Should our doctrine be as simple as the articles of faith? You bet. Why aren&#8217;t they? Because everyone in authority in the church or who has power to make something authoritive has to add to it and try to clarify something that does not need clarifying. Why do we not come up with something like BRM &#8220;Mormon Doctrine&#8221; then? Because the authoritive Brethren will probably never be able to agree on all of the little parts that make up the whole and be correct in all things at the same time. This church we have to remember is one that is still growing and evolving and one that continues to be enlightened daily in advancing the doctrine more perfectly.</p>
<p>It is thus my opinion that when we define &#8220;mormonism&#8221; we should always look at it from the view of what we currently believe in but in doing so that perception might change in the future. This does not hold well with critics or even ourselves, but at the same time we should be open to the facts that since Joseph Smith first organized this church, we have continually changed our methods of ordinances, worship and purpose that today does not resemble the definition of what Mormonism was viewed at a 100 years ago.</p>
<p>I do wish that we could somehow get together on the core doctrine of the plan of salvation and get that set in concrete though as that part will never change.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/#comment-68739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Keith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/realistic-expectations/#comment-68739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find it hard to blame most journalists in their attempts to cover the beliefs and doings of such a complex church and religion.  Honestly, put yourself in the shoes of a staff reporter for the NY Times or Washington Post or the like.  More than likely you would have been raised in a small, middle income household on the east coast somewhere and until receiving the assignment to write a report on lets say, &#039;Mitt Romeny and his church,&#039; you had only heard of the Mormons in passing.  The confusing image that comes to your mind is gold plates, not celebrating Christmas, living without electricity, multiple wives, farming communities, etc.  Then you look at a picture of Romney and think, &#039;Who are these Mormons?&#039;  &#039;He looks so &#039;normal,&#039; so the picture in my head must be wrong.&#039; And then, the big question...&#039;Where do I even begin to find answers in order to best articulate my report?&#039;

While this image that I&#039;ve drawn is a bit simple and problematic, I do not doubt that many journalists approach the church with a similar background to the one mentioned above.  So, where are they to begin?  Where are they to go?  With whom are they to speak?  There are endless outlets ranging from websites to interviews to books on every topic imaginable.  It certainly seems to be a daunting task.

And the point of all of this is simply to say that we do not make the job of a journalist any easier.  The fact is, the church is complex and complicated.  Mormons are not just another protestant, evangelical people with the basic belief in salvation through Jesus Christ.  And any attempt to boil the LDS doctrine down to something simple like this is misleading and wrong.  All too often I hear institute teachers and gospel principle teachers telling classes that the doctrine of the church is simple: something along the lines of faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end.  Ha!  If only it were so easy.

The church needs to be increasingly transparent, even at the risk that involves.  We need to help journalists understand that although we are a relatively young church, we are yet a highly organised and structured church with a complex set of doctrines and traditions only rivaled in Christianity with the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.  Mormonism isn&#039;t something to approach lightly and we as members can&#039;t attempt to explain it in such terms either.  I fear that the leadership of the church all too often gives the wrong image and attempts to hide from the difficult task of our &#039;deep&#039; doctrines and traditions rather than facing them and being understood as a &#039;high&#039; and complex church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it hard to blame most journalists in their attempts to cover the beliefs and doings of such a complex church and religion.  Honestly, put yourself in the shoes of a staff reporter for the NY Times or Washington Post or the like.  More than likely you would have been raised in a small, middle income household on the east coast somewhere and until receiving the assignment to write a report on lets say, &#8216;Mitt Romeny and his church,&#8217; you had only heard of the Mormons in passing.  The confusing image that comes to your mind is gold plates, not celebrating Christmas, living without electricity, multiple wives, farming communities, etc.  Then you look at a picture of Romney and think, &#8216;Who are these Mormons?&#8217;  &#8216;He looks so &#8216;normal,&#8217; so the picture in my head must be wrong.&#8217; And then, the big question&#8230;&#8217;Where do I even begin to find answers in order to best articulate my report?&#8217;</p>
<p>While this image that I&#8217;ve drawn is a bit simple and problematic, I do not doubt that many journalists approach the church with a similar background to the one mentioned above.  So, where are they to begin?  Where are they to go?  With whom are they to speak?  There are endless outlets ranging from websites to interviews to books on every topic imaginable.  It certainly seems to be a daunting task.</p>
<p>And the point of all of this is simply to say that we do not make the job of a journalist any easier.  The fact is, the church is complex and complicated.  Mormons are not just another protestant, evangelical people with the basic belief in salvation through Jesus Christ.  And any attempt to boil the LDS doctrine down to something simple like this is misleading and wrong.  All too often I hear institute teachers and gospel principle teachers telling classes that the doctrine of the church is simple: something along the lines of faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end.  Ha!  If only it were so easy.</p>
<p>The church needs to be increasingly transparent, even at the risk that involves.  We need to help journalists understand that although we are a relatively young church, we are yet a highly organised and structured church with a complex set of doctrines and traditions only rivaled in Christianity with the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.  Mormonism isn&#8217;t something to approach lightly and we as members can&#8217;t attempt to explain it in such terms either.  I fear that the leadership of the church all too often gives the wrong image and attempts to hide from the difficult task of our &#8216;deep&#8217; doctrines and traditions rather than facing them and being understood as a &#8216;high&#8217; and complex church.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/#comment-68738</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/realistic-expectations/#comment-68738</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;And anyone who has spent any time in the Bloggernacle knows that debates about how to define Mormon doctrine defy resolution.&quot;

I think it is even difficult to point to any discrete examples to support this assertion.  Can anyone point to any classic or espcially typical bloggernacle debates.

I agree that the methodology of doctrinal construction is uncertain--but let&#039;s show this is so with specific examples and evidence.  That is, let&#039;s not frame our uncertainty with more uncertainty.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And anyone who has spent any time in the Bloggernacle knows that debates about how to define Mormon doctrine defy resolution.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think it is even difficult to point to any discrete examples to support this assertion.  Can anyone point to any classic or espcially typical bloggernacle debates.</p>
<p>I agree that the methodology of doctrinal construction is uncertain&#8211;but let&#8217;s show this is so with specific examples and evidence.  That is, let&#8217;s not frame our uncertainty with more uncertainty.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/#comment-68737</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Nov 2006 00:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/realistic-expectations/#comment-68737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Encyclopedia of Mormonism isn&#039;t on the web at a single location (like the Catholic Encyclopedia, for instance), but many articles are on the web and may be found by searching.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Encyclopedia of Mormonism isn&#8217;t on the web at a single location (like the Catholic Encyclopedia, for instance), but many articles are on the web and may be found by searching.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/#comment-68736</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/realistic-expectations/#comment-68736</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Aaron, the tryptophan infusion from today&#039;s meal must have addled your mind.  I see no reason why we should abandon our efforts to correct incorrect publications or to reverse errors made by journalists.

Now, if you can&#039;t get worked up about the idea, that&#039;s a different thing altogether.  Perhaps the topic of apathy is worth examining?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron, the tryptophan infusion from today&#8217;s meal must have addled your mind.  I see no reason why we should abandon our efforts to correct incorrect publications or to reverse errors made by journalists.</p>
<p>Now, if you can&#8217;t get worked up about the idea, that&#8217;s a different thing altogether.  Perhaps the topic of apathy is worth examining?</p>
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		<title>By: ed johnson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/#comment-68735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ed johnson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 20:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/realistic-expectations/#comment-68735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Non members are, understandably, interested in the facets of Mormonism that are unique, unusual, or even weird.

&quot;True to the Faith&quot; is simply not a good reference for these things.  For example, it doesn&#039;t even mention plural marriage.  Any decent reporter who wanted to understand LDS doctrines about the family would have questions about plural marriage.  It&#039;s also full of distinctive mormon language that is less meaningful to an outsider than it is to insiders.

But I&#039;d agree that the Encyclopedia of Mormonism is a great resource, and really should be the primary resource for this type of reporting.  The problem is, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s very well known or easily accessible.  Is it on the web?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Non members are, understandably, interested in the facets of Mormonism that are unique, unusual, or even weird.</p>
<p>&#8220;True to the Faith&#8221; is simply not a good reference for these things.  For example, it doesn&#8217;t even mention plural marriage.  Any decent reporter who wanted to understand LDS doctrines about the family would have questions about plural marriage.  It&#8217;s also full of distinctive mormon language that is less meaningful to an outsider than it is to insiders.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;d agree that the Encyclopedia of Mormonism is a great resource, and really should be the primary resource for this type of reporting.  The problem is, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s very well known or easily accessible.  Is it on the web?</p>
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		<title>By: Hellmut</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/22/realistic-expectations/#comment-68734</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hellmut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 19:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/realistic-expectations/#comment-68734</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;In a Church where â€œFollow the Prophetâ€ is a ubiquitous refrain, and past prophets are understood to have been just as in tune with Godâ€™s will as the current one, non-Mormons often assume that, absent strong repudiations, the statements of past prophets are still normative.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The assumptions of non-Mormons are the least of our problems.  The real problems arise when Mormons assume that the statements of past prophets are still normative.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In a Church where â€œFollow the Prophetâ€ is a ubiquitous refrain, and past prophets are understood to have been just as in tune with Godâ€™s will as the current one, non-Mormons often assume that, absent strong repudiations, the statements of past prophets are still normative.</p></blockquote>
<p>The assumptions of non-Mormons are the least of our problems.  The real problems arise when Mormons assume that the statements of past prophets are still normative.</p>
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