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	<title>Comments on: Wresting the Scriptures</title>
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		<title>By: Joe Spencer</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/27/wresting/#comment-100989</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe Spencer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2006 17:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I come late, like Robert, but with some very specific feelings about this issue.

Clark is perfectly right here. Alma draws a distinction between temporal knowing and spiritual knowing in Alma 36:4, and in 37:43 when he uses the terms again he seems quite clear on the fact that &quot;spiritual&quot; means something like &quot;typological&quot; where &quot;temporal&quot; means something like &quot;causal&quot; or even &quot;scientific.&quot; (One should note that Alma himself discusses wresting the scriptures during the same discussion with his sons in 41:1.) Post-modern approaches to the scriptures tend to ignore difficulties like the present one because they understand the possibility of reading several hermeneutic possibilities in a single text.

&quot;Wrest&quot; and &quot;wrestle&quot; are closely related words, both having a sort of twisting behind them. When one wrests something, however, one twists it without allowing it to exert a force in return. But when one wrestles, both are twisting together. We are to wrestle with, not wrest, the scriptures. In other words, if we simply twist words to accomplish a purpose of our own--proof texting, perhaps--we are wresting the scriptures. To wrestle with them is to allow them to fight back, to suggest to us as much as we suggest to them, to have a conversation, etc. Cf. Gadamer and Ricoeur.

In fact, a wonderful book for thinking about this question is Andre LaCoque and Paul Ricoeur, _Thinking the Bible_. The former provides an article of strict textual exegesis, and then the latter discusses hermeneutical possibilities in the text. They tackle the texts that are constantly pointed to as &quot;misrepresentations&quot; of the OT by Christians. Very fascinating discussion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I come late, like Robert, but with some very specific feelings about this issue.</p>
<p>Clark is perfectly right here. Alma draws a distinction between temporal knowing and spiritual knowing in Alma 36:4, and in 37:43 when he uses the terms again he seems quite clear on the fact that &#8220;spiritual&#8221; means something like &#8220;typological&#8221; where &#8220;temporal&#8221; means something like &#8220;causal&#8221; or even &#8220;scientific.&#8221; (One should note that Alma himself discusses wresting the scriptures during the same discussion with his sons in 41:1.) Post-modern approaches to the scriptures tend to ignore difficulties like the present one because they understand the possibility of reading several hermeneutic possibilities in a single text.</p>
<p>&#8220;Wrest&#8221; and &#8220;wrestle&#8221; are closely related words, both having a sort of twisting behind them. When one wrests something, however, one twists it without allowing it to exert a force in return. But when one wrestles, both are twisting together. We are to wrestle with, not wrest, the scriptures. In other words, if we simply twist words to accomplish a purpose of our own&#8211;proof texting, perhaps&#8211;we are wresting the scriptures. To wrestle with them is to allow them to fight back, to suggest to us as much as we suggest to them, to have a conversation, etc. Cf. Gadamer and Ricoeur.</p>
<p>In fact, a wonderful book for thinking about this question is Andre LaCoque and Paul Ricoeur, _Thinking the Bible_. The former provides an article of strict textual exegesis, and then the latter discusses hermeneutical possibilities in the text. They tackle the texts that are constantly pointed to as &#8220;misrepresentations&#8221; of the OT by Christians. Very fascinating discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert C.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/27/wresting/#comment-100988</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert C.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Are the two interpretations--agents of destruction vs. missionaries--mutually exclusive?  Passages like Isa 6:9-10, where Isaiah is told to preach the word to hasten their destruction, make me wonder....

Very interesting post and comments, thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are the two interpretations&#8211;agents of destruction vs. missionaries&#8211;mutually exclusive?  Passages like Isa 6:9-10, where Isaiah is told to preach the word to hasten their destruction, make me wonder&#8230;.</p>
<p>Very interesting post and comments, thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/27/wresting/#comment-100987</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/wresting-the-scriptures/#comment-100987</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This poster-boy example dates back to the early days of the LDS Church.

W.W. Phelps suggested that the time of the fulfillment of Jeremiah 16:14-16 was near (&lt;a href=&quot;http://centerplace.org/history/ems/v1n12.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Preach the Word,&quot; The Evening and the Morning Star, May 1833&lt;/a&gt;).

A few years later, Oliver Cowdery included a reading of Jeremiah 16:16 in the context of his account of Moroni&#039;s visits to Joseph Smith.  It&#039;s a bit unclear whether Cowdery was attributing the reading to Moroni or was offering his own scriptural readings to illustrate the major themes of Moroni&#039;s message, e.g., restoration, gathering, etc. (I would guess the latter).  (Cowdery noted that &quot;I have thought best to give a farther detail of the heavenly message, and if I do not give it in the precise words, shall strictly confine myself to the facts in substance&quot; and &quot;I have now given you a rehearsal of what was communicated to our brother....I may have missed in arrangement in some instances, but the principle is preserved, and you will be able to bring forward abundance of corroborating scripture upon the subject of the gospel and of the gathering. You are aware of the fact, that to give a minute rehearsal of a lengthy interview with a heavenly messenger, is very difficult, unless one is assisted immediately with the gift of inspiration.&quot;)

In any case, Cowdery wrote: &quot;And thus shall Israel come: not a dark corner of the earth shall remain unexplored, nor an island of the seas be left without being visited; for as the Lord has removed them into all corners of the earth, he will cause his mercy to be as abundantly manifested in their gathering as his wrath in their dispersion, until they are gathered according to the covenant. He will, as he said by the prophet, send for many fishers and they shall fish them; and after send for many hunters, who shall hunt them; not as their enemies have to afflict, but with glad tidings of great joy, with a message of peace, and a call for their return&quot; (&lt;a href=&quot;http://centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n07.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Messenger and Advocate, April 1835&lt;/a&gt;).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This poster-boy example dates back to the early days of the LDS Church.</p>
<p>W.W. Phelps suggested that the time of the fulfillment of Jeremiah 16:14-16 was near (<a href="http://centerplace.org/history/ems/v1n12.htm" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Preach the Word,&#8221; The Evening and the Morning Star, May 1833</a>).</p>
<p>A few years later, Oliver Cowdery included a reading of Jeremiah 16:16 in the context of his account of Moroni&#8217;s visits to Joseph Smith.  It&#8217;s a bit unclear whether Cowdery was attributing the reading to Moroni or was offering his own scriptural readings to illustrate the major themes of Moroni&#8217;s message, e.g., restoration, gathering, etc. (I would guess the latter).  (Cowdery noted that &#8220;I have thought best to give a farther detail of the heavenly message, and if I do not give it in the precise words, shall strictly confine myself to the facts in substance&#8221; and &#8220;I have now given you a rehearsal of what was communicated to our brother&#8230;.I may have missed in arrangement in some instances, but the principle is preserved, and you will be able to bring forward abundance of corroborating scripture upon the subject of the gospel and of the gathering. You are aware of the fact, that to give a minute rehearsal of a lengthy interview with a heavenly messenger, is very difficult, unless one is assisted immediately with the gift of inspiration.&#8221;)</p>
<p>In any case, Cowdery wrote: &#8220;And thus shall Israel come: not a dark corner of the earth shall remain unexplored, nor an island of the seas be left without being visited; for as the Lord has removed them into all corners of the earth, he will cause his mercy to be as abundantly manifested in their gathering as his wrath in their dispersion, until they are gathered according to the covenant. He will, as he said by the prophet, send for many fishers and they shall fish them; and after send for many hunters, who shall hunt them; not as their enemies have to afflict, but with glad tidings of great joy, with a message of peace, and a call for their return&#8221; (<a href="http://centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n07.htm" rel="nofollow">Messenger and Advocate, April 1835</a>).</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/27/wresting/#comment-100986</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Specifically regarding the Bible Dictionary, its heading suggests using another one, and one of the committee members flatly says its source was scholarship, not revelation.

&quot;&lt;strong&gt;The new Bible dictionary is not intended as a revealed treatment&lt;/strong&gt; or official version of doctrinal, historical, cultural, chronological, and other matters found in the Bible.&quot;  - Robert J. Matthews (who was on the scripture comittee), â€œUsing the New Bible Dictionary in the LDS Edition,â€ &lt;em&gt;Ensign&lt;/em&gt;, June 1982, 48

 &quot;Many of the items have been drawn from the best available scholarship of the world and are subject to reevaluation based on new research and discoveries or on new revelation.  The topics have been carefully selected and are treated briefly. &lt;strong&gt;If an elaborate discussion is desired, the student should consult a more exhaustive dictionary.&lt;/strong&gt;&quot;

In that light, I point out that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.millennialstar.org/index.php/2006/05/23/elder_hinckley_cites_anchor_bible_dictio&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Elder Richard Hinckley quoted from the Anchor Bible Dictionary&lt;/a&gt; in last conference.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Specifically regarding the Bible Dictionary, its heading suggests using another one, and one of the committee members flatly says its source was scholarship, not revelation.</p>
<p>&#8220;<strong>The new Bible dictionary is not intended as a revealed treatment</strong> or official version of doctrinal, historical, cultural, chronological, and other matters found in the Bible.&#8221;  &#8211; Robert J. Matthews (who was on the scripture comittee), â€œUsing the New Bible Dictionary in the LDS Edition,â€ <em>Ensign</em>, June 1982, 48</p>
<p> &#8220;Many of the items have been drawn from the best available scholarship of the world and are subject to reevaluation based on new research and discoveries or on new revelation.  The topics have been carefully selected and are treated briefly. <strong>If an elaborate discussion is desired, the student should consult a more exhaustive dictionary.</strong>&#8221;</p>
<p>In that light, I point out that <a href="http://www.millennialstar.org/index.php/2006/05/23/elder_hinckley_cites_anchor_bible_dictio" rel="nofollow">Elder Richard Hinckley quoted from the Anchor Bible Dictionary</a> in last conference.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl D</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/27/wresting/#comment-100985</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Karl D]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I think the reason why verse 16 in english translations is placed in a new paragraph is that the opening sentence signals a new oracle: &quot;Behold I am sending many Fishers,&quot; says the the LORD.

Thus even though the paragraph mark is a byproduct of the translation, there is good reason to believe that a new oracle has started.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the reason why verse 16 in english translations is placed in a new paragraph is that the opening sentence signals a new oracle: &#8220;Behold I am sending many Fishers,&#8221; says the the LORD.</p>
<p>Thus even though the paragraph mark is a byproduct of the translation, there is good reason to believe that a new oracle has started.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/27/wresting/#comment-100984</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt W.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[JNS: Hmmm. Well, I just opened up &quot;On Zion&#039;s Hill&quot; and It&#039;s not exactly my favorite talk, but I still don&#039;t see where it is some how implied that the words within these helps are somehow equal to the actual striptures themselves. Don&#039;t get me wrong, I love the Bible Dictionary and the Topical Guide, but I don&#039;t see Elder Packer claiming it is revelation from God, but that it came into being by revelation from God. Yes he says Inspiration brooded over the work, but then he says what the inspiration brought forth right after that: A system of organization for Footnotes, original manuscripts of the Book of Mormon, and the ability to publish new sections of the D&amp;C including the perfectly timed 2nd official declaration. And as to the question this is answering. I think he answered it in the next paragraph where he says Joseph laid the foundation. He does then go on to say there is still revelation, as sighted above, and there still is revelation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JNS: Hmmm. Well, I just opened up &#8220;On Zion&#8217;s Hill&#8221; and It&#8217;s not exactly my favorite talk, but I still don&#8217;t see where it is some how implied that the words within these helps are somehow equal to the actual striptures themselves. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I love the Bible Dictionary and the Topical Guide, but I don&#8217;t see Elder Packer claiming it is revelation from God, but that it came into being by revelation from God. Yes he says Inspiration brooded over the work, but then he says what the inspiration brought forth right after that: A system of organization for Footnotes, original manuscripts of the Book of Mormon, and the ability to publish new sections of the D&amp;C including the perfectly timed 2nd official declaration. And as to the question this is answering. I think he answered it in the next paragraph where he says Joseph laid the foundation. He does then go on to say there is still revelation, as sighted above, and there still is revelation.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/27/wresting/#comment-100983</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frank McIntyre]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/wresting-the-scriptures/#comment-100983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree (I think) with Clark.  Wresting the scriptures is to read them differently than &lt;strong&gt;the Spirit&lt;/strong&gt; intended-- not than the purported author intended.  If you check the definition at the top, nothing in it revolves around authorial intent. To wrest means:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;To strain or overstrain the meaning or bearing of (a writing, passage, word, etc.); to deflect or turn from the true or proper signification; to twist, pervert.&quot;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The &quot;true or proper signification&quot; surely is the one that God gives it, not the one the earthly author gives it.  And God is not limited to one signification for all time and places.  Of course, this does make it harder to objectively say that someone else is wresting the scriptures.  So I guess we might be forced in many cases to leave that to those with revelation.  Not that it isn&#039;t interesting to hear from the bible scholars, just that they are not going to be authoritative in the same way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree (I think) with Clark.  Wresting the scriptures is to read them differently than <strong>the Spirit</strong> intended&#8211; not than the purported author intended.  If you check the definition at the top, nothing in it revolves around authorial intent. To wrest means:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;To strain or overstrain the meaning or bearing of (a writing, passage, word, etc.); to deflect or turn from the true or proper signification; to twist, pervert.&#8221;
</p></blockquote>
<p>The &#8220;true or proper signification&#8221; surely is the one that God gives it, not the one the earthly author gives it.  And God is not limited to one signification for all time and places.  Of course, this does make it harder to objectively say that someone else is wresting the scriptures.  So I guess we might be forced in many cases to leave that to those with revelation.  Not that it isn&#8217;t interesting to hear from the bible scholars, just that they are not going to be authoritative in the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/27/wresting/#comment-100982</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[JNS spricht die Wahrheit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JNS spricht die Wahrheit.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/27/wresting/#comment-100981</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/wresting-the-scriptures/#comment-100981</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt, on the other hand, Packer did say, after describing a process in which experts, rank-and-file members, and a computer program produced cross-references and notes, &quot;The spirit of inspiration brooded over the work.&quot;  Because Mormons don&#039;t make a clear distinction between inspiration and revelation, this might be a claim of revelation for the whole project.

But, more importantly, the intricate detail that Packer provides regarding the process of producing the notes, index, and topical guide would be irrelevant if the claim were merely that the decision to begin the project was by revelation.  After all, the entire talk is structured as an answer to this hypothetical question:

&lt;blockquote&gt;â€œI would have willingly endured persecution and trials if I might have lived in the early years of the Church when there was such a flow of revelation published as scripture. Why is that not happening now?â€&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Reading Packer&#039;s claim that the spirit of inspiration brooded over the entire process of creating the marginalia makes the description of the revision procedure responsive to this guiding question.  If, on the other hand, the only revelation was to do the process in the first place, then the rest of the story is irrelevant.  Elder Packer doesn&#039;t usually go that far off the narrative rails in his talks; it&#039;s generally best to read his sermons as if they were deliberately composed to make a point -- because they almost always are.  These considerations argue in favor of seeing his claim of inspiration for the process of generating scriptural study aids as intentional.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, on the other hand, Packer did say, after describing a process in which experts, rank-and-file members, and a computer program produced cross-references and notes, &#8220;The spirit of inspiration brooded over the work.&#8221;  Because Mormons don&#8217;t make a clear distinction between inspiration and revelation, this might be a claim of revelation for the whole project.</p>
<p>But, more importantly, the intricate detail that Packer provides regarding the process of producing the notes, index, and topical guide would be irrelevant if the claim were merely that the decision to begin the project was by revelation.  After all, the entire talk is structured as an answer to this hypothetical question:</p>
<blockquote><p>â€œI would have willingly endured persecution and trials if I might have lived in the early years of the Church when there was such a flow of revelation published as scripture. Why is that not happening now?â€</p></blockquote>
<p>Reading Packer&#8217;s claim that the spirit of inspiration brooded over the entire process of creating the marginalia makes the description of the revision procedure responsive to this guiding question.  If, on the other hand, the only revelation was to do the process in the first place, then the rest of the story is irrelevant.  Elder Packer doesn&#8217;t usually go that far off the narrative rails in his talks; it&#8217;s generally best to read his sermons as if they were deliberately composed to make a point &#8212; because they almost always are.  These considerations argue in favor of seeing his claim of inspiration for the process of generating scriptural study aids as intentional.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/27/wresting/#comment-100980</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt W.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/11/wresting-the-scriptures/#comment-100980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RT:

Ok, I&#039;ll bite. I&#039;d take it as Boyd K. Packer  saying the General Authorities received Revelation to undergo the project of updating the scriptures, not as every single detail in the project being handed to them by revelation, as it is common knowledge that the updates in the scriptures were compiled by multiple committees, with even undergrads at BYU contributing at the time. (My Parents In Law were there.)

And it was a glorious project and the scriptures are excellent. They aren&#039;t perfect, but they are excellent and head and shoulders above where they were prior.

I can believe this project was called forth as part of the Will of God. Boyd K. Packer was much closer to the decision makers than I, so why not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RT:</p>
<p>Ok, I&#8217;ll bite. I&#8217;d take it as Boyd K. Packer  saying the General Authorities received Revelation to undergo the project of updating the scriptures, not as every single detail in the project being handed to them by revelation, as it is common knowledge that the updates in the scriptures were compiled by multiple committees, with even undergrads at BYU contributing at the time. (My Parents In Law were there.)</p>
<p>And it was a glorious project and the scriptures are excellent. They aren&#8217;t perfect, but they are excellent and head and shoulders above where they were prior.</p>
<p>I can believe this project was called forth as part of the Will of God. Boyd K. Packer was much closer to the decision makers than I, so why not.</p>
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