Comments on: April Sixth and the Conception of Jesus http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/ A Mormon Blog Sat, 21 Nov 2009 04:41:04 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Kevin Barney http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19236 Kevin Barney Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:41:16 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19236 Mitchell, my own view is that Presidents Lee and Kimball did not receive revelation on this point. They were simply repeating something that they had read in Talmage's classic, <em>Jesus the Christ</em>. Talmage got the idea from B.H. Roberts. And Roberts was simply wrong. He came up with a clever little idea that D&C 20:1 articulates the precise birth date of Jesus, but he was wrong. The idea doesn't trace back any earlier than him in the 1890s. (I do not believe in prophetic infallibility.) Mitchell, my own view is that Presidents Lee and Kimball did not receive revelation on this point. They were simply repeating something that they had read in Talmage’s classic, Jesus the Christ. Talmage got the idea from B.H. Roberts. And Roberts was simply wrong. He came up with a clever little idea that D&C 20:1 articulates the precise birth date of Jesus, but he was wrong. The idea doesn’t trace back any earlier than him in the 1890s.

(I do not believe in prophetic infallibility.)

]]> By: Mitchell Colver http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19235 Mitchell Colver Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:20:30 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19235 I am rather confused by a great deal of this. Kevin Barney cites both President Harold B. Lee and Spencer W. Kimball as General Authorities, but fails to mention that they BOTH were President, and therfore Prophet, at the time they each respectively made the statement that Christ was born on April, 6th, B.C. 1. See General Conference, April 6th, 1973, Harold B. Lee & General Conference, April 6th, 1980, Spencer W. Kimball. "Whether by my mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." -D&C 1:38. Seems to me that the Lord himself, through the mouth of TWO WITNESSES and acting Presidents of the Church and Prophets unto all the nations, has stated very clearly that he was born on April 6th, B.C. 1. "And the wisdom of the wise shall be confounded." Do not be surprised that modern science and astrology and computers and history books don't all come up with that same date. Spiritual truths are derived through spiritual means, not through the "understandings of men." Bruce R. McConkie (see Mortal Messiah, 1979), as smart a man as he was, was never a seer unto the nations. The three BYU professors who took it upon themselves to investigate the matter were ALSO never seers unto the nations. Harold B. Lee, President of the Church & Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, President of the Church & Prophet Two witnesses, two seers, two servants. The Lord and the truth. I am rather confused by a great deal of this. Kevin Barney cites both President Harold B. Lee and Spencer W. Kimball as General Authorities, but fails to mention that they BOTH were President, and therfore Prophet, at the time they each respectively made the statement that Christ was born on April, 6th, B.C. 1.

See General Conference, April 6th, 1973, Harold B. Lee & General Conference, April 6th, 1980, Spencer W. Kimball.

“Whether by my mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” -D&C 1:38.

Seems to me that the Lord himself, through the mouth of TWO WITNESSES and acting Presidents of the Church and Prophets unto all the nations, has stated very clearly that he was born on April 6th, B.C. 1.

“And the wisdom of the wise shall be confounded.” Do not be surprised that modern science and astrology and computers and history books don’t all come up with that same date. Spiritual truths are derived through spiritual means, not through the “understandings of men.”
Bruce R. McConkie (see Mortal Messiah, 1979), as smart a man as he was, was never a seer unto the nations. The three BYU professors who took it upon themselves to investigate the matter were ALSO never seers unto the nations.

Harold B. Lee, President of the Church & Prophet
Spencer W. Kimball, President of the Church & Prophet
Two witnesses, two seers, two servants.
The Lord and the truth.

]]> By: David Brosnahan http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19234 David Brosnahan Tue, 05 Dec 2006 04:15:04 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19234 I heard a report by some female near-eastern studies PhDs which said that Jesus was probably not born in a cave. Rather, Joseph and Mary would have had family in Bethlehem and would have planned to stay with them. Houses in Jeruselem at that time were two levels. The animals lived on the ground floor while the people lived upstairs. The verse "no room in the inn" could be translated to mean, there was no room in the upper part of the home, so they had to stay with the animals on the ground floor. According to them, there was no going from inn-to-inn looking for a place to stay. This interpretation fixes another conundrum. It says that when the wise men found Christ, still in Bethlehem, they found him in a house. Matthew reads, "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother" (Matt. 2: 11). Also, here is some wild speculation. I always pondered the Messianic prophecy which reads, "For behold, the child shall not have knowledge to cry" (Ne. 18: 4). Having had 3 premature babies, I can say that they really never cried that much for a few months. I don't think a crying baby constitutes sin or some great sign. The scriptures tell us that "and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him" This prophecy may mean simply that Christ was born a bit early; maybe at 36 weeks instead of 40. My kids were skinny but came right home from the hospital. I don't think Joseph and Mary would have scheduled such an arguous trip so close to her due date. I heard a report by some female near-eastern studies PhDs which said that Jesus was probably not born in a cave. Rather, Joseph and Mary would have had family in Bethlehem and would have planned to stay with them. Houses in Jeruselem at that time were two levels. The animals lived on the ground floor while the people lived upstairs. The verse “no room in the inn” could be translated to mean, there was no room in the upper part of the home, so they had to stay with the animals on the ground floor. According to them, there was no going from inn-to-inn looking for a place to stay.

This interpretation fixes another conundrum. It says that when the wise men found Christ, still in Bethlehem, they found him in a house. Matthew reads, “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother” (Matt. 2: 11).

Also, here is some wild speculation. I always pondered the Messianic prophecy which reads, “For behold, the child shall not have knowledge to cry” (Ne. 18: 4). Having had 3 premature babies, I can say that they really never cried that much for a few months. I don’t think a crying baby constitutes sin or some great sign. The scriptures tell us that “and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him” This prophecy may mean simply that Christ was born a bit early; maybe at 36 weeks instead of 40. My kids were skinny but came right home from the hospital. I don’t think Joseph and Mary would have scheduled such an arguous trip so close to her due date.

]]> By: FHL http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19233 FHL Mon, 04 Dec 2006 23:07:03 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19233 Of course we need to know when He was born... it would determine whether He was an Aries or a Capricorn! <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac" rel="nofollow">Zodiac Signs</a> (Kevin, you didn't miss much with the x-ray specs, but the potato gun worked pretty well.) Of course we need to know when He was born… it would determine whether He was an Aries or a Capricorn!
Zodiac Signs

(Kevin, you didn’t miss much with the x-ray specs, but the potato gun worked pretty well.)

]]> By: cew-smoke http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19232 cew-smoke Mon, 04 Dec 2006 21:17:18 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19232 Antonio: I am sorry to hear that you do not get to celebrate the birth of the Savior in a way you are accustomed to. As for me, I guess I am lucky, we always have the Sunday before Christmas dedicated to Christ and talk about him with such love and devotion in both Sacrament, Sunday School and Priesthood. We also always have a wonderful Stake musical program right around Christmas where through song and word we get to join in and participate the proverbial reason for the season. Perhaps you should take the initiative to offer your thoughts to the Bishop on the matter and maybe help jump-start something new and wonderful in your ward or stake. Antonio: I am sorry to hear that you do not get to celebrate the birth of the Savior in a way you are accustomed to. As for me, I guess I am lucky, we always have the Sunday before Christmas dedicated to Christ and talk about him with such love and devotion in both Sacrament, Sunday School and Priesthood. We also always have a wonderful Stake musical program right around Christmas where through song and word we get to join in and participate the proverbial reason for the season.

Perhaps you should take the initiative to offer your thoughts to the Bishop on the matter and maybe help jump-start something new and wonderful in your ward or stake.

]]> By: cew-smoke http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19231 cew-smoke Mon, 04 Dec 2006 21:09:39 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19231 It's obvious that his birth was on March 25th. We all know the Lord likes to group the most important things on the same date to better keep all the heavenly holidays lined up so nicely. Since I was born on March 25th... voila! The answer is now obvious. LOL!!! Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion. It’s obvious that his birth was on March 25th. We all know the Lord likes to group the most important things on the same date to better keep all the heavenly holidays lined up so nicely. Since I was born on March 25th… voila! The answer is now obvious. LOL!!!

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

]]> By: cassianus http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19230 cassianus Mon, 04 Dec 2006 18:30:54 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19230 For what it's worth, and if I can actually remember, many early Christian Fathers thought Jesus was born in the spring was because he died in the spring, on passover to be more precise. This seemed appropriate to them for variously described "mystical" reasons. For what it’s worth, and if I can actually remember, many early Christian Fathers thought Jesus was born in the spring was because he died in the spring, on passover to be more precise. This seemed appropriate to them for variously described “mystical” reasons.

]]> By: Antonio Parr http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19229 Antonio Parr Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:12:43 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19229 April 6th -- December 25th -- whenever/whatever. I would be happy if Latter-Day Saints made it a point to celebrate the birth of Christ at any time with even a hint of the reverence and wonder displayed by our Christian counterparts. When I joined the Church, I never imagined for a moment that one of the things that I would have to sacrifice was the communal celebration of Christ, His birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection. April 6th — December 25th — whenever/whatever. I would be happy if Latter-Day Saints made it a point to celebrate the birth of Christ at any time with even a hint of the reverence and wonder displayed by our Christian counterparts.

When I joined the Church, I never imagined for a moment that one of the things that I would have to sacrifice was the communal celebration of Christ, His birth, life, teachings, death and resurrection.

]]> By: Kevin Barney http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19228 Kevin Barney Mon, 04 Dec 2006 16:07:03 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19228 BTW, I first learned of the pagan assimilation theory and the feast of Sol Invictus when I was a boy. I was really into astronomy, and I subscribed to Sky & Telescope. There was an ad in one issue for a lecture on the Christmas Star, so I ordered it. (This was my version of sending away for x-ray specs advertised in the back of a comic book.) It was a cool lecture; it came on a long playing, 33-1/3 vinyl album (for you kids who don't know what record albums are). This theory was a part of that lecture. BTW, I first learned of the pagan assimilation theory and the feast of Sol Invictus when I was a boy. I was really into astronomy, and I subscribed to Sky & Telescope. There was an ad in one issue for a lecture on the Christmas Star, so I ordered it. (This was my version of sending away for x-ray specs advertised in the back of a comic book.) It was a cool lecture; it came on a long playing, 33-1/3 vinyl album (for you kids who don’t know what record albums are). This theory was a part of that lecture.

]]> By: Kevin Barney http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/03/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19227 Kevin Barney Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:52:23 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/april-sixth-and-the-conception-of-jesus/#comment-19227 Tracy M., the rationale for the wise men visiting Jesus later is that, if they originated from Persia or Babylon, it would have taken them months to travel to Judea. On Saturday I saw The Nativity Story. I liked it. They made an effort to infuse some realism in the story, which I appreciated (though if I were making the film, I would have gone farther down that road than they did). They gave the three wise men the traditional medieval names, with two white and one black, per tradition, and had them coming from Persia. In the movie, they interpreted the astrological conjunction in advance, and so timed their long journey so as to arrive shortly after Jesus was born. Tracy M., the rationale for the wise men visiting Jesus later is that, if they originated from Persia or Babylon, it would have taken them months to travel to Judea.

On Saturday I saw The Nativity Story. I liked it. They made an effort to infuse some realism in the story, which I appreciated (though if I were making the film, I would have gone farther down that road than they did). They gave the three wise men the traditional medieval names, with two white and one black, per tradition, and had them coming from Persia. In the movie, they interpreted the astrological conjunction in advance, and so timed their long journey so as to arrive shortly after Jesus was born.

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