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	<title>Comments on: Der Heilige Geist: Part One</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: UnicornMom</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51688</link>
		<dc:creator>UnicornMom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>AC - The imagery from that has made my day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AC &#8211; The imagery from that has made my day.</p>
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		<title>By: AC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51687</link>
		<dc:creator>AC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:02:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51687</guid>
		<description>I had a friend who, after having lived in UT for a few years and then leaving and living elsewhere, loved to quote this to me:  &quot;Mormonism is like manure.  You spread it around and it does a lot of good.  You pile it up in one place and it just stinks.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a friend who, after having lived in UT for a few years and then leaving and living elsewhere, loved to quote this to me:  &#8220;Mormonism is like manure.  You spread it around and it does a lot of good.  You pile it up in one place and it just stinks.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51686</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51686</guid>
		<description>Unicorn Mom:

Amen to that. your perserverence on the bumpy road is admirable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unicorn Mom:</p>
<p>Amen to that. your perserverence on the bumpy road is admirable.</p>
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		<title>By: UnicornMom</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51685</link>
		<dc:creator>UnicornMom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51685</guid>
		<description>By saying what I did (#39) I didn&#039;t mean to indicate that I was going to &lt;i&gt;stop&lt;/i&gt; going to church because of it, simply that I couldn&#039;t use that as a reason &lt;b&gt;to&lt;/b&gt; go to church any more (which I had tried to do for years.)  It wasn&#039;t an isolated experience with local members, but was a series of experiences across several wards that led me to believe that my help was neither desired nor appreciated by the membership in Utah in general.

I think when you base behavior off of someone else in whatever way, you run a definite risk.  I still go to church, but not because I believe I can help someone.  I also don&#039;t go because I feel the spirit there.  Unfortunately, I have tried (and still try) the &quot;get what I can on my own&quot; approach, but it rarely works.  I also think that I shouldn&#039;t feel guilty for not feeling the spirit when I have tried what I can to do so.

Sometimes you don&#039;t get apples from an apple tree.  Sometimes they&#039;re all wormy.  That doesn&#039;t mean you should cut down the tree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By saying what I did (#39) I didn&#8217;t mean to indicate that I was going to <i>stop</i> going to church because of it, simply that I couldn&#8217;t use that as a reason <b>to</b> go to church any more (which I had tried to do for years.)  It wasn&#8217;t an isolated experience with local members, but was a series of experiences across several wards that led me to believe that my help was neither desired nor appreciated by the membership in Utah in general.</p>
<p>I think when you base behavior off of someone else in whatever way, you run a definite risk.  I still go to church, but not because I believe I can help someone.  I also don&#8217;t go because I feel the spirit there.  Unfortunately, I have tried (and still try) the &#8220;get what I can on my own&#8221; approach, but it rarely works.  I also think that I shouldn&#8217;t feel guilty for not feeling the spirit when I have tried what I can to do so.</p>
<p>Sometimes you don&#8217;t get apples from an apple tree.  Sometimes they&#8217;re all wormy.  That doesn&#8217;t mean you should cut down the tree.</p>
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		<title>By: AC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51684</link>
		<dc:creator>AC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:09:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51684</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve met a few people that have taken the tack, &quot;this is my church and there is nothing you can do to drive me away&quot;

I know of at least one person that loves to work in primary because then he doesn&#039;t have to deal with the stupid lessons.  If there&#039;s a nursery in your ward, there&#039;s a good chance that it&#039;s understaffed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve met a few people that have taken the tack, &#8220;this is my church and there is nothing you can do to drive me away&#8221;</p>
<p>I know of at least one person that loves to work in primary because then he doesn&#8217;t have to deal with the stupid lessons.  If there&#8217;s a nursery in your ward, there&#8217;s a good chance that it&#8217;s understaffed.</p>
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		<title>By: warno</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51683</link>
		<dc:creator>warno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51683</guid>
		<description>To continue the &quot;why I do/do not go to church&quot; discussion, I wonder if attending church and expecting someone or something to make that experience meaningful is almost inevitably going to leave us unsatisfied.  Personal spiritual development is part of church attendance but it is not the only reason and I would argue that it is not the most important.

Setting aside partaking of the sacrament, which is really the only required element of worship and is very personal, the purpose of the rest of the meetings should be to progress as a congregation/group toward becoming a Zion people.  We have the rest of the week to focus on our personal and family spirituality but for those three hours we should be focused on building up everyone around us.  I think the two aims are complementary not competing.  Does this mean sitting through lessons that are ill-prepared or delivered by someone who really shouldn&#039;t be in front of people?  Or cloying talks from newlyweds whose testimonies seem to revolve around how in love they are?  Unfortunately, this might be the cross we have to bear.

Not to sound like an grumpy old man but the &quot;church does nothing for me&quot; mindset reinforces the stereotype that people in a modern, affluent society are too self-absorbed .  As summed up in the words of a general authority of another kind: &quot;Here we are now, entertain us!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To continue the &#8220;why I do/do not go to church&#8221; discussion, I wonder if attending church and expecting someone or something to make that experience meaningful is almost inevitably going to leave us unsatisfied.  Personal spiritual development is part of church attendance but it is not the only reason and I would argue that it is not the most important.</p>
<p>Setting aside partaking of the sacrament, which is really the only required element of worship and is very personal, the purpose of the rest of the meetings should be to progress as a congregation/group toward becoming a Zion people.  We have the rest of the week to focus on our personal and family spirituality but for those three hours we should be focused on building up everyone around us.  I think the two aims are complementary not competing.  Does this mean sitting through lessons that are ill-prepared or delivered by someone who really shouldn&#8217;t be in front of people?  Or cloying talks from newlyweds whose testimonies seem to revolve around how in love they are?  Unfortunately, this might be the cross we have to bear.</p>
<p>Not to sound like an grumpy old man but the &#8220;church does nothing for me&#8221; mindset reinforces the stereotype that people in a modern, affluent society are too self-absorbed .  As summed up in the words of a general authority of another kind: &#8220;Here we are now, entertain us!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51682</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 14:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51682</guid>
		<description>I;m sorry to here the UM. I obviously can&#039;t know your full situation, but If you have a problem with Local Members, I would take the issue to your Bishop, unless he is the problem, then I&#039;d discuss it with the Stake President.

I hope this doesn&#039;t seem like a dumb &quot;obvious&quot; answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I;m sorry to here the UM. I obviously can&#8217;t know your full situation, but If you have a problem with Local Members, I would take the issue to your Bishop, unless he is the problem, then I&#8217;d discuss it with the Stake President.</p>
<p>I hope this doesn&#8217;t seem like a dumb &#8220;obvious&#8221; answer.</p>
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		<title>By: UnicornMom</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51681</link>
		<dc:creator>UnicornMom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51681</guid>
		<description>I used to, but other members have made it abundantly clear in multiple ways and times that they don&#039;t want &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to, but other members have made it abundantly clear in multiple ways and times that they don&#8217;t want <i>my</i> help.</p>
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		<title>By: AC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51680</link>
		<dc:creator>AC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51680</guid>
		<description>can you hijack an airplane that&#039;s landed and consumed its fuel and is scheduled for decommissioning?

I think the standard response (which I assume is true, but haven&#039;t bothered to test), is to just read your scriptures and pray whether you want to or not.

my mom (I have a panoply of wise relations) said that one of the greater struggles is perserving.  &quot;how do you change when nothing else around you is?  finding the will to reinvent yourself is difficult.&quot;

in youth, there were innumerable changes and so feeling new and revitalized wasn&#039;t hard.  in college, the faces all change from semester to semester.  on mission, at least one face changed every two months and I shifted cities every 3.  post mission brought more college (with its diversity).  now I&#039;m at a point in life where it&#039;s a long trudge to retirement (house is the same, kids are the same, job is the same, commute is the same, coworkers don&#039;t change, ...)

I think this is where we get back to treasuring up past experiences with the spirit.  maybe you could research and write part 2 or part 3 of this article.  what roles does the spirit have and how does the spirit manifest itself in mormon doctrine/theology.

having your husband and child go to church w/o you causes awkward questions from the child.  I wouldn&#039;t give up unless you are ready to deal with your child seeing the inconsisten behavior between mom and dad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>can you hijack an airplane that&#8217;s landed and consumed its fuel and is scheduled for decommissioning?</p>
<p>I think the standard response (which I assume is true, but haven&#8217;t bothered to test), is to just read your scriptures and pray whether you want to or not.</p>
<p>my mom (I have a panoply of wise relations) said that one of the greater struggles is perserving.  &#8220;how do you change when nothing else around you is?  finding the will to reinvent yourself is difficult.&#8221;</p>
<p>in youth, there were innumerable changes and so feeling new and revitalized wasn&#8217;t hard.  in college, the faces all change from semester to semester.  on mission, at least one face changed every two months and I shifted cities every 3.  post mission brought more college (with its diversity).  now I&#8217;m at a point in life where it&#8217;s a long trudge to retirement (house is the same, kids are the same, job is the same, commute is the same, coworkers don&#8217;t change, &#8230;)</p>
<p>I think this is where we get back to treasuring up past experiences with the spirit.  maybe you could research and write part 2 or part 3 of this article.  what roles does the spirit have and how does the spirit manifest itself in mormon doctrine/theology.</p>
<p>having your husband and child go to church w/o you causes awkward questions from the child.  I wouldn&#8217;t give up unless you are ready to deal with your child seeing the inconsisten behavior between mom and dad.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt W.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/17/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51679</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:48:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/12/der-heilige-geist-part-one/#comment-51679</guid>
		<description>I go to church because I hope I can help someone else there...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I go to church because I hope I can help someone else there&#8230;</p>
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