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	<title>Comments on: Spirit and mind</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Splendid Sun &#187; Brigham on spirit</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63646</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Splendid Sun &#187; Brigham on spirit]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 05:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63646</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Smith, most frequently call the King Follet Discourse, many Latter-day saints believe that the mind of man is eternal and can never be created or destroyed. While he had preached this concept five years earlier, there [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Smith, most frequently call the King Follet Discourse, many Latter-day saints believe that the mind of man is eternal and can never be created or destroyed. While he had preached this concept five years earlier, there [...]</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63645</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just a note to say that Joseph preached on the eternal nature of the spirit as early as 1839 (5 years before the KFD):

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Spirit of Man is not a created being; it existed from Eternity &amp; will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be Eternal. (&lt;em&gt;WoJS&lt;/em&gt; pg. 9)&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a note to say that Joseph preached on the eternal nature of the spirit as early as 1839 (5 years before the KFD):</p>
<blockquote><p>The Spirit of Man is not a created being; it existed from Eternity &amp; will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be Eternal. (<em>WoJS</em> pg. 9)</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Mark D. Butler</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63644</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark D. Butler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63644</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well said.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63643</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63643</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brother Parr,

The rhetoric of praise &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; there (&quot;every knee shall bow,&quot; &quot;I will praise and adore at the mercy seat,&quot; etc.), but the dour Mormon aesthetic sucks the life out of it.

Unless, of course, we are singing &quot;Praise to the Man&quot;... :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brother Parr,</p>
<p>The rhetoric of praise <em>is</em> there (&#8220;every knee shall bow,&#8221; &#8220;I will praise and adore at the mercy seat,&#8221; etc.), but the dour Mormon aesthetic sucks the life out of it.</p>
<p>Unless, of course, we are singing &#8220;Praise to the Man&#8221;&#8230; :)</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63642</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ken]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 04:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63642</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As Orson Scott Card said in &lt;em&gt;Saintspeak&lt;/em&gt;,

&quot;Mormon - People who believe that the only difference between them and God is a few years of training. &quot;

and

&quot;&lt;em&gt;As man is, God once was; As God is, man may become&lt;/em&gt;

A doctrine which makes perfect sense when applied to me, but becomes downright unbelievable when applied to almost anyone else I can think of.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Orson Scott Card said in <em>Saintspeak</em>,</p>
<p>&#8220;Mormon &#8211; People who believe that the only difference between them and God is a few years of training. &#8221;</p>
<p>and</p>
<p>&#8220;<em>As man is, God once was; As God is, man may become</em></p>
<p>A doctrine which makes perfect sense when applied to me, but becomes downright unbelievable when applied to almost anyone else I can think of.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio Parr</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63641</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antonio Parr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 03:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63641</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thus saith Ammon:

&quot;Therefore, let us glory, yea, we will glory in the Lord; yea, we will rejoice, for our joy is full; yea, we will praise our God forever. Behold, who can glory too much in the Lord? Yea, who can say too much of his great power, and of his mercy , and of his long-suffering towards the children of men? Behold, I say unto you, I cannot say the smallest part which I feel.&quot;

Alma 26:16]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thus saith Ammon:</p>
<p>&#8220;Therefore, let us glory, yea, we will glory in the Lord; yea, we will rejoice, for our joy is full; yea, we will praise our God forever. Behold, who can glory too much in the Lord? Yea, who can say too much of his great power, and of his mercy , and of his long-suffering towards the children of men? Behold, I say unto you, I cannot say the smallest part which I feel.&#8221;</p>
<p>Alma 26:16</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63640</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63640</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Antonio Parr: &lt;em&gt;I really do think that our reduction of God to the status of an exalted man who is one of many, many exalted men has resulted in a people who lack the sense of wonder&lt;/em&gt;

Who is this &quot;our&quot; you are referring to here?  Among Mormons there are numerous schools of thought on some of these theological questions.  Some (like Blake Ostler) hold that the Father became a mortal once but has been the supreme God from all eternity.  Most who lean toward the idea that our Father progressed to his Godhood usually also hold that there is a numberless regress of Fathers before our Father and it is not uncommon to think that our Father is One with his Fathers -- thus the plural word Elohim represents both the person of our Father and the Divine Concert with whom hi is one.   I bring this up simply to show that if a Latter Day Saint holds a conception of God that lacks a sense of wonder it is a personal problem  not a problem forced by the institution.  There are plenty of theological views in Mormonism that supply ample reason for awe (even if we reject the &lt;em&gt;ex nihilo&lt;/em&gt; creator of the creeds).

Also, it seems to me that too much awe becomes a major barrier to a personal relationship with God.  I suspect we emphasize our parent-child relationship with God partially to reduce barriers to personal revelatory relationships.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Antonio Parr: <em>I really do think that our reduction of God to the status of an exalted man who is one of many, many exalted men has resulted in a people who lack the sense of wonder</em></p>
<p>Who is this &#8220;our&#8221; you are referring to here?  Among Mormons there are numerous schools of thought on some of these theological questions.  Some (like Blake Ostler) hold that the Father became a mortal once but has been the supreme God from all eternity.  Most who lean toward the idea that our Father progressed to his Godhood usually also hold that there is a numberless regress of Fathers before our Father and it is not uncommon to think that our Father is One with his Fathers &#8212; thus the plural word Elohim represents both the person of our Father and the Divine Concert with whom hi is one.   I bring this up simply to show that if a Latter Day Saint holds a conception of God that lacks a sense of wonder it is a personal problem  not a problem forced by the institution.  There are plenty of theological views in Mormonism that supply ample reason for awe (even if we reject the <em>ex nihilo</em> creator of the creeds).</p>
<p>Also, it seems to me that too much awe becomes a major barrier to a personal relationship with God.  I suspect we emphasize our parent-child relationship with God partially to reduce barriers to personal revelatory relationships.</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio Parr</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63639</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antonio Parr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 00:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63639</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really do think that our reduction of God to the status of an exalted man who is one of many, many exalted men has resulted in a people who lack the sense of wonder that, for example, Muslims display when they kneel before the Being Who they believe to be the one true God who is master of all creation.

Not trying to be difficult here.  I just have not witnessed much in the way of awe and wonder when Mormons talk about God.  There are, of course, exceptions.  But how many of you ever hear expressions such as those found in Alma 26 when Latter-Day Saints talk about God?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really do think that our reduction of God to the status of an exalted man who is one of many, many exalted men has resulted in a people who lack the sense of wonder that, for example, Muslims display when they kneel before the Being Who they believe to be the one true God who is master of all creation.</p>
<p>Not trying to be difficult here.  I just have not witnessed much in the way of awe and wonder when Mormons talk about God.  There are, of course, exceptions.  But how many of you ever hear expressions such as those found in Alma 26 when Latter-Day Saints talk about God?</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio Parr</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63638</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antonio Parr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 00:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63638</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How about instead of a &lt;em&gt;rote&lt;/em&gt; &quot;How Great Thou Art&quot;, we try a heartfelt one with a sense of awe and wonder at the Master of the universe?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about instead of a <em>rote</em> &#8220;How Great Thou Art&#8221;, we try a heartfelt one with a sense of awe and wonder at the Master of the universe?</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/22/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63637</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoff J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 00:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/01/spirit-and-mind/#comment-63637</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Antonio Parr: &lt;em&gt;Words of adoration and reverence, i.e., â€œhallowed by Thy nameâ€ or â€œHow great Thou Artâ€, etc., donâ€™t appear in the LDS meetings that I attend.&lt;/em&gt;

Oh good grief. So you would be happy if Mormons threw in a rote &quot;hallowed be thy name&quot; in every prayer?  Sound vacuous and pointless to me.  In my opinion we do praise God when we offer sincere thanks for specific blessings in our lives.  I can&#039;t imagine God would prefer a always-repeated â€œHow great Thou Artâ€ over a real and honest conversation/dialogue with us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Antonio Parr: <em>Words of adoration and reverence, i.e., â€œhallowed by Thy nameâ€ or â€œHow great Thou Artâ€, etc., donâ€™t appear in the LDS meetings that I attend.</em></p>
<p>Oh good grief. So you would be happy if Mormons threw in a rote &#8220;hallowed be thy name&#8221; in every prayer?  Sound vacuous and pointless to me.  In my opinion we do praise God when we offer sincere thanks for specific blessings in our lives.  I can&#8217;t imagine God would prefer a always-repeated â€œHow great Thou Artâ€ over a real and honest conversation/dialogue with us.</p>
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