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	<title>Comments on: Liturgy, Instruction, Worship</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: J.D.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74612</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.D.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kristine,

Your post reminded me of an interesting book that explores some of the same ground.  The book, &quot;Paul and the Expansion of the Church Today&quot;, was written by Ed Firmage.

Though I welcome Gladys Knight&#039;s infusion of musical variety to the annual MoTab Christmas concert, I remain miffed that brass instruments (excluding the organ stop) are excluded from Mormon worship.  However, I have noticed a few bell choirs that have sneeked onto the stage in Mormon liturgy over the last 20 years or so.  I&#039;d like to think that some of the early bell pioneers from Philadelphia helped prepare the way for the recently formed bell choir on Temple Square.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kristine,</p>
<p>Your post reminded me of an interesting book that explores some of the same ground.  The book, &#8220;Paul and the Expansion of the Church Today&#8221;, was written by Ed Firmage.</p>
<p>Though I welcome Gladys Knight&#8217;s infusion of musical variety to the annual MoTab Christmas concert, I remain miffed that brass instruments (excluding the organ stop) are excluded from Mormon worship.  However, I have noticed a few bell choirs that have sneeked onto the stage in Mormon liturgy over the last 20 years or so.  I&#8217;d like to think that some of the early bell pioneers from Philadelphia helped prepare the way for the recently formed bell choir on Temple Square.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben H</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74611</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben H]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 04:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74611</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kristine, great to hear from you!

I think like Jana that the Mormon view is that a lot of the most important worship is personal or to be conducted with family (or friends). Of course, I think most actual Mormons don&#039;t think of it this way. Most actual Mormons seem to think of Sunday meetings as the core of their worship. This is sad because as you say the worship part is so limited and often not that well done. I think the way we grow through learning to serve and be served by one another is ultimately more important than worship, so I&#039;m okay with our meetings, but I think really good worship can also be very nourishing, so it is a real loss that we don&#039;t do better at it. (I am also sad that most Mormons seem to let Sunday meetings become the core of their gospel learning process, because they are far from enough on that front too)

But for you, perhaps part of your personal worship is Evensong. So you are actually following the program better than most Mormons!

For me, my personal worship routine used to include things like (i) about once a month talking late into the night with Patrick and Melissa and Mike and Kennan and some of our other friends at ND; (ii) practicing and then performing in church songs like &quot;Jesus Christ the Apple Tree&quot; while awkwardly dodging participation in the ward choir; (iii) singing the Alfred Burt Carols and other favorites around the piano with my family for an hour or two whenever I made a visit home; (iv) progressively compiling and elaborating a list of temple study scriptures with my sister over the course of the past fifteen years.

I do think though that the current Mormon collective worship pattern is highly contingent and is driven partly by cultural assumptions (such as distrust/lack of appreciation for the role of the body, ritual, non-verbal communication and expression), and partly by practical necessity. Due to pluralism and urban sprawl we don&#039;t all live a five-minute walk from the church anymore to have meetings multiple times per day (the assumed context of many older worship traditions I suspect). Of course, in places like Utah we do, so it is unfortunate that we don&#039;t take advantage of it for services like these. I am hopeful that in a few more years we will be ready to shift gears again and adapt worship schedule, curriculum, etc. somewhat to local circumstances.

Kristine, what do you make of the fact that at many churches worship involves a rock band? To what extent is the wonderful music you enjoy at Evensong a reflection of a certain rather odd demographic at that church which is totally different from what we have and would realistically want in the CJCLDS? Is it apples and oranges to compare this with the CJCLDS? Or . . . would it make sense for someone in MoTab to compare their experience there with their ward meetings?

Next time I&#039;m in New England, can I come to Evensong?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kristine, great to hear from you!</p>
<p>I think like Jana that the Mormon view is that a lot of the most important worship is personal or to be conducted with family (or friends). Of course, I think most actual Mormons don&#8217;t think of it this way. Most actual Mormons seem to think of Sunday meetings as the core of their worship. This is sad because as you say the worship part is so limited and often not that well done. I think the way we grow through learning to serve and be served by one another is ultimately more important than worship, so I&#8217;m okay with our meetings, but I think really good worship can also be very nourishing, so it is a real loss that we don&#8217;t do better at it. (I am also sad that most Mormons seem to let Sunday meetings become the core of their gospel learning process, because they are far from enough on that front too)</p>
<p>But for you, perhaps part of your personal worship is Evensong. So you are actually following the program better than most Mormons!</p>
<p>For me, my personal worship routine used to include things like (i) about once a month talking late into the night with Patrick and Melissa and Mike and Kennan and some of our other friends at ND; (ii) practicing and then performing in church songs like &#8220;Jesus Christ the Apple Tree&#8221; while awkwardly dodging participation in the ward choir; (iii) singing the Alfred Burt Carols and other favorites around the piano with my family for an hour or two whenever I made a visit home; (iv) progressively compiling and elaborating a list of temple study scriptures with my sister over the course of the past fifteen years.</p>
<p>I do think though that the current Mormon collective worship pattern is highly contingent and is driven partly by cultural assumptions (such as distrust/lack of appreciation for the role of the body, ritual, non-verbal communication and expression), and partly by practical necessity. Due to pluralism and urban sprawl we don&#8217;t all live a five-minute walk from the church anymore to have meetings multiple times per day (the assumed context of many older worship traditions I suspect). Of course, in places like Utah we do, so it is unfortunate that we don&#8217;t take advantage of it for services like these. I am hopeful that in a few more years we will be ready to shift gears again and adapt worship schedule, curriculum, etc. somewhat to local circumstances.</p>
<p>Kristine, what do you make of the fact that at many churches worship involves a rock band? To what extent is the wonderful music you enjoy at Evensong a reflection of a certain rather odd demographic at that church which is totally different from what we have and would realistically want in the CJCLDS? Is it apples and oranges to compare this with the CJCLDS? Or . . . would it make sense for someone in MoTab to compare their experience there with their ward meetings?</p>
<p>Next time I&#8217;m in New England, can I come to Evensong?</p>
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		<title>By: C</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74590</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[C]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74590</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve had a recurring &quot;issue&quot; with my need for worship over the church&#039;s scheduled meeting of edification or instruction when Easter Sunday happens to fall on the first Sunday in April.  I love and need to worship on Easter Sunday -- I want to sing in the choir and partake of the sacrament.  Although I generally enjoy General Conference and listen attentively, when it falls on Easter Sunday, it doesn&#039;t meet my need for worship. Going to a dark chapel and watching a satellite broadcast or, now, staying home in my pajamas and listening to it on the computer, just don&#039;t do it for me.  I have been known to attend other churches&#039; services on these Sundays.  When I see that this conflict will occur, I have, several times, written to church leadership in Salt Lake, expressing my wish that in the future they would move General Conference a week in either direction to allow us to enjoy a worship service on Easter Sunday and have our conference meeting of edification at a different time.  FYI:  when I get a response from these letters, they reference my previous letters, so they do have a file on me!  But then they add that they have no plans to change the week of conference.  I don&#039;t really understand this.  There&#039;s nothing particularly sacred about that weekend -- it&#039;s just an administrative thing.  And, though I might invite a friend of another faith looking for an Easter service to attend ours -- I would never do that on a General Conference Easter Sunday.  My friend would probably think we didn&#039;t celebrate Easter and were, therefore, not Christians.  I have a many times attended services at other churches, and have been substitute organists for them and performed musical numbers and accompanied music at first communions. My most memorable Easter Sunday was one when I was in London and went on Good Friday to a service at St. Pauls Cathedral, went on Easter Sunday morning to Westminster Abbey and then that afternoon to a meeting at my Hyde Park Chapel ward.  But though I love the music and drama and theater of the other services, I feel the spirit more purely at my home ward&#039;s testimony meetings, where I see and hear people I know and love sharing the feelings in their hearts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve had a recurring &#8220;issue&#8221; with my need for worship over the church&#8217;s scheduled meeting of edification or instruction when Easter Sunday happens to fall on the first Sunday in April.  I love and need to worship on Easter Sunday &#8212; I want to sing in the choir and partake of the sacrament.  Although I generally enjoy General Conference and listen attentively, when it falls on Easter Sunday, it doesn&#8217;t meet my need for worship. Going to a dark chapel and watching a satellite broadcast or, now, staying home in my pajamas and listening to it on the computer, just don&#8217;t do it for me.  I have been known to attend other churches&#8217; services on these Sundays.  When I see that this conflict will occur, I have, several times, written to church leadership in Salt Lake, expressing my wish that in the future they would move General Conference a week in either direction to allow us to enjoy a worship service on Easter Sunday and have our conference meeting of edification at a different time.  FYI:  when I get a response from these letters, they reference my previous letters, so they do have a file on me!  But then they add that they have no plans to change the week of conference.  I don&#8217;t really understand this.  There&#8217;s nothing particularly sacred about that weekend &#8212; it&#8217;s just an administrative thing.  And, though I might invite a friend of another faith looking for an Easter service to attend ours &#8212; I would never do that on a General Conference Easter Sunday.  My friend would probably think we didn&#8217;t celebrate Easter and were, therefore, not Christians.  I have a many times attended services at other churches, and have been substitute organists for them and performed musical numbers and accompanied music at first communions. My most memorable Easter Sunday was one when I was in London and went on Good Friday to a service at St. Pauls Cathedral, went on Easter Sunday morning to Westminster Abbey and then that afternoon to a meeting at my Hyde Park Chapel ward.  But though I love the music and drama and theater of the other services, I feel the spirit more purely at my home ward&#8217;s testimony meetings, where I see and hear people I know and love sharing the feelings in their hearts.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74603</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74603</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nobody minds thread-jacks when they&#039;re interesting.  Well, at least I don&#039;t!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody minds thread-jacks when they&#8217;re interesting.  Well, at least I don&#8217;t!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: TMD</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74604</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TMD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74604</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(Sorry for the thread-jack)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Sorry for the thread-jack)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: TMD</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74608</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TMD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74608</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kristine--

I&#039;ve long seen the continuous and acrimonious public battles of the episcopal church as evidence of the importance of revelation and priesthood authority.  While the ECUSA has been able to weather much theological difference over the years (I&#039;ve been in a university chapel where the main cross had a removable jesus, depending upon the theology of the episcopalians using it), the battles of the last three decades--women priests, prayer book, women bishops, the role of scripture, now proudly gay bishops and same-sex unions--have produced tremendous amounts of acrimony and hurt feelings and schism (and believe me, congregations left and schismatic congregations were formed in response to all of those--don&#039;t forget that more than 300 priests and a number of bishops left the anglican church after they ordained women).  So often the focus of the episcopal church has turned to politics rather than coming to Christ.  Dioscese and parish committees spend inordinate amounts of time and effort addressing these issues, and fighting among themselves--it&#039;s not just a national or international issue.  So I see it as a poor model.

And it seems to me that Schori and Robinson and their allies now seek a kind of authoritarian response, in denying those who episcopalians who priviledge scripture as a source of authority and who reject openly homosexual bishops the kinds of solutions which have been used for years in other provinces of the communion where such deep rifts have developed, like the use of primatial vicars for dissenters within a province.  Indeed, this refusal to even try to recognize the &quot;conservatives&quot; viewpoint as valid suggests to me very strongly the authoriarians tendencies of progressives and others of the left.  Really, it seems to me that, properly negotiated, the Tanzania communique may offer a way out for both sides.  But I think that the majority in the ECUSA is at the point where it just wants the conservative/traditionalist minority to either shut up or leave, or be forced to shut up through threats to seize churches etc.
So I don&#039;t see their &quot;open-ness&quot; as being in any way desireable.  Rather, debating and voting over doctrine may seem nice according to the ways of the world, but I beleve it is ultimately destructive of faith and community.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kristine&#8211;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve long seen the continuous and acrimonious public battles of the episcopal church as evidence of the importance of revelation and priesthood authority.  While the ECUSA has been able to weather much theological difference over the years (I&#8217;ve been in a university chapel where the main cross had a removable jesus, depending upon the theology of the episcopalians using it), the battles of the last three decades&#8211;women priests, prayer book, women bishops, the role of scripture, now proudly gay bishops and same-sex unions&#8211;have produced tremendous amounts of acrimony and hurt feelings and schism (and believe me, congregations left and schismatic congregations were formed in response to all of those&#8211;don&#8217;t forget that more than 300 priests and a number of bishops left the anglican church after they ordained women).  So often the focus of the episcopal church has turned to politics rather than coming to Christ.  Dioscese and parish committees spend inordinate amounts of time and effort addressing these issues, and fighting among themselves&#8211;it&#8217;s not just a national or international issue.  So I see it as a poor model.</p>
<p>And it seems to me that Schori and Robinson and their allies now seek a kind of authoritarian response, in denying those who episcopalians who priviledge scripture as a source of authority and who reject openly homosexual bishops the kinds of solutions which have been used for years in other provinces of the communion where such deep rifts have developed, like the use of primatial vicars for dissenters within a province.  Indeed, this refusal to even try to recognize the &#8220;conservatives&#8221; viewpoint as valid suggests to me very strongly the authoriarians tendencies of progressives and others of the left.  Really, it seems to me that, properly negotiated, the Tanzania communique may offer a way out for both sides.  But I think that the majority in the ECUSA is at the point where it just wants the conservative/traditionalist minority to either shut up or leave, or be forced to shut up through threats to seize churches etc.<br />
So I don&#8217;t see their &#8220;open-ness&#8221; as being in any way desireable.  Rather, debating and voting over doctrine may seem nice according to the ways of the world, but I beleve it is ultimately destructive of faith and community.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74591</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmmm, TMD, I&#039;m not inclined to regard the news from Tanzania as good, but ymmv.  It is interesting to see how the process differs when the discussion and disagreement happens in a relatively open way, instead of all the decisions being made behind closed doors and handed down from the top.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, TMD, I&#8217;m not inclined to regard the news from Tanzania as good, but ymmv.  It is interesting to see how the process differs when the discussion and disagreement happens in a relatively open way, instead of all the decisions being made behind closed doors and handed down from the top.</p>
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		<title>By: MCQ</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74592</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MCQ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74592</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kristine:  I wondered about that, but concluded that the order in which you placed your feelings was puposeful.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kristine:  I wondered about that, but concluded that the order in which you placed your feelings was puposeful.</p>
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		<title>By: TMD</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74593</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TMD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:57:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74593</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Being among friends of episcopalians, I just wanted to mention that I know many of them will be happy with the good news from Tanzania, and that I am happy for them.  They may be able to maintain a place in the episcopal church!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being among friends of episcopalians, I just wanted to mention that I know many of them will be happy with the good news from Tanzania, and that I am happy for them.  They may be able to maintain a place in the episcopal church!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: queuno</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/19/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74594</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[queuno]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/liturgy-instruction-worship/#comment-74594</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem with testimony meetings is that those who know how to give a proper testimony and would have something to say ... don&#039;t.

When I hear people complain about TM, I ask them for the last time they themselves stood and delivered...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with testimony meetings is that those who know how to give a proper testimony and would have something to say &#8230; don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>When I hear people complain about TM, I ask them for the last time they themselves stood and delivered&#8230;</p>
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