Comments on: Review: Statements of the LDS First Presidency http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/ A Mormon Blog Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:10:40 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: R. Gary http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63880 R. Gary Sun, 08 Apr 2007 13:33:03 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63880 J. (#12), Your answer, "No," is technically correct (referring to the 1949 statement linked in #11).  However, Bergera does include a 1952 statement that uses identical wording under the topic "premortal existence" on page 342: <blockquote>"[T]he conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality, and ... while the details of the principle have not been made known, the principle itself indicates that the coming to this earth and the taking on mortality is a privilege so great that is given to those who kept their first estate;... the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to Earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicaps may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure, or as to the inhabitations that may follow because of the bodies they may secure; and that among the handicaps may be the failure of the right to enjoy, during mortality, the blessings of the priesthood.  This is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they may come to Earth."</blockquote> Notice that the statement says nothing about premortal neutrality and therefore that neither of the 1912 letters quoted under the topic "race" on page 369 "calls the doctrine in that link bunk." J. (#12),

Your answer, “No,” is technically correct (referring to the 1949 statement linked in #11).  However, Bergera does include a 1952 statement that uses identical wording under the topic “premortal existence” on page 342:

“[T]he conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality, and … while the details of the principle have not been made known, the principle itself indicates that the coming to this earth and the taking on mortality is a privilege so great that is given to those who kept their first estate;… the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to Earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicaps may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure, or as to the inhabitations that may follow because of the bodies they may secure; and that among the handicaps may be the failure of the right to enjoy, during mortality, the blessings of the priesthood.  This is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they may come to Earth.”

Notice that the statement says nothing about premortal neutrality and therefore that neither of the 1912 letters quoted under the topic “race” on page 369 “calls the doctrine in that link bunk.”

]]> By: Marjorie Conder http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63879 Marjorie Conder Sat, 31 Mar 2007 15:55:39 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63879 Opening and closing prayers in my ward seem pretty random. In fact just a few weeks ago both prayers were given by single women. It also seems to me that women have given the opening prayer in Stake Conference. In any case it is always a man and a woman praying in Stake Conference. Opening and closing prayers in my ward seem pretty random. In fact just a few weeks ago both prayers were given by single women. It also seems to me that women have given the opening prayer in Stake Conference. In any case it is always a man and a woman praying in Stake Conference.

]]> By: Anon http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63878 Anon Thu, 29 Mar 2007 17:36:53 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63878 Tom, any idea when this book will be available on amazon.ca? Tom, any idea when this book will be available on amazon.ca?

]]> By: Darrell http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63877 Darrell Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:44:05 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63877 As a Bishop there are many times when I have purposly asked women to pray at both ends of the meeting just to alay such misconceptions. As a Bishop there are many times when I have purposly asked women to pray at both ends of the meeting just to alay such misconceptions.

]]> By: Spencer http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63876 Spencer Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:34:00 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63876 We were asked to give the prayers in sacrament meeting on a day when my wife had to leave early. We told the counselor that my wife would have to give the opening, and I would give the closing prayer. They found someone else. In nearly four years, I'm confident that a woman has not said the opening prayer in sacrament meeting. I always figured that since the closing prayer is more important (you should try to remember the speakers' names and the general subject of the talks), that's why they had the women go last. Since it is well established that all women are spiritual queens who keep dragging their bumbling husbands up to a level that marginally qualifies them for church service. We were asked to give the prayers in sacrament meeting on a day when my wife had to leave early. We told the counselor that my wife would have to give the opening, and I would give the closing prayer.

They found someone else.

In nearly four years, I’m confident that a woman has not said the opening prayer in sacrament meeting.

I always figured that since the closing prayer is more important (you should try to remember the speakers’ names and the general subject of the talks), that’s why they had the women go last. Since it is well established that all women are spiritual queens who keep dragging their bumbling husbands up to a level that marginally qualifies them for church service.

]]> By: Justin http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63875 Justin Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:38:58 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63875 Men offer all the opening prayers in my ward. In order to confirm my suspicions of a unwritten and unannounced policy, I began to keep a record of the prayers last year. After nine straight weeks of men offering the invocation, I stopped keeping formal count. Men offer all the opening prayers in my ward. In order to confirm my suspicions of a unwritten and unannounced policy, I began to keep a record of the prayers last year. After nine straight weeks of men offering the invocation, I stopped keeping formal count.

]]> By: Matt W. http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63874 Matt W. Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:56:20 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63874 ajay42: <a href="http://www.zionsbest.com/unwritten.html" rel="nofollow">here. </a> ajay42:

here.

]]> By: J. Stapley http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63873 J. Stapley Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:40:14 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63873 Gary, I think your Stake President probably confused counsel about open prayers (still a goofy policy, that some leaders seem to think is valid) with a proscription against all prayers. Gary, I think your Stake President probably confused counsel about open prayers (still a goofy policy, that some leaders seem to think is valid) with a proscription against all prayers.

]]> By: ajay42 http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63872 ajay42 Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:18:37 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63872 Ah, the 'unwritten order.' I serve in a Bishopric and was referred by my Bishop to an article by one of the apostles on this very topic. However, I have searched lds.org from one end to the other using every search term I could think of and couldn't find such an article. (If anyone knows where it's at, please let me know. I'm guessing it doesn't really exist--much like the archaic 'rules' suggested by it.) According to my Bishop this article discussed other things like walking behind the presiding authority, etc., etc. I was very embarrased when I conducted my first Sacrament meeting and was chastised for asking a sister to give the opening prayer. This had been no problem in my previous ward/stake, so I was pretty confused. Ah, the ‘unwritten order.’ I serve in a Bishopric and was referred by my Bishop to an article by one of the apostles on this very topic. However, I have searched lds.org from one end to the other using every search term I could think of and couldn’t find such an article. (If anyone knows where it’s at, please let me know. I’m guessing it doesn’t really exist–much like the archaic ‘rules’ suggested by it.)

According to my Bishop this article discussed other things like walking behind the presiding authority, etc., etc.

I was very embarrased when I conducted my first Sacrament meeting and was chastised for asking a sister to give the opening prayer. This had been no problem in my previous ward/stake, so I was pretty confused.

]]> By: Gary http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/27/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63871 Gary Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:49:25 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/03/review-statements-of-the-lds-first-presidency/#comment-63871 Our Stake President has advised Bishoprics in our Stake as recently as three years ago that he has received instructions from somebody in authority over him (I don't know remember it was an Area Authority or General Authority) that women were not to offer opening prayers in Sacrament Meeting. Our Stake President has advised Bishoprics in our Stake as recently as three years ago that he has received instructions from somebody in authority over him (I don’t know remember it was an Area Authority or General Authority) that women were not to offer opening prayers in Sacrament Meeting.

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