Comments on: Relief Society? Who Cares?! http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/ A Mormon Blog Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:02:51 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Blogger of Jared » Blog Archive » Your General Relief Society President, Julie B. Beck: http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133041 Blogger of Jared » Blog Archive » Your General Relief Society President, Julie B. Beck: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 21:14:31 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133041 [...] prompted by a recent thread on BCC, I thought it may be valuable to disseminate some information regarding our new General Relief [...] [...] prompted by a recent thread on BCC, I thought it may be valuable to disseminate some information regarding our new General Relief [...]

]]> By: Eve http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133040 Eve Wed, 04 Apr 2007 19:04:21 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133040 <blockquote>Anyone who would be livid with anything is probably not very professional and is clouded by personal bias.</blockquote> Matt, that's a pretty exalted standard, for historians or for anyone else! Personally, I don't think I could be friends with someone who was incapable of getting livid. God, for his part, seems quite capable of appropriate lividity. Hard to have an ethics or a love of anything or anyone withot the capacity to care if those things are violated and those people are hurt. (Not to suggest that my own anger is in any way godllike; I'm sure it's not. But I couldn't worship a God who couldn't get mad.) Ah, the dreaded question of personal bias. I do think we--historians and everyone else--have a responsibility to consider all the evidence, maybe especially the evidence that cuts against our personal biases. We have a responsibility (a hard one, one I don't live up to well) to seek out other points of view and force ourselves to consider what we disagree with, as well as why we have such strong feelings about it. But that said, there's no one on the planet who doesn't have personal biases. And again, I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who had no personal biases, nor to worship a God who had achieved some ideal of detached rational objective consideration of all realities. Would you?

Anyone who would be livid with anything is probably not very professional and is clouded by personal bias.

Matt, that’s a pretty exalted standard, for historians or for anyone else! Personally, I don’t think I could be friends with someone who was incapable of getting livid. God, for his part, seems quite capable of appropriate lividity. Hard to have an ethics or a love of anything or anyone withot the capacity to care if those things are violated and those people are hurt. (Not to suggest that my own anger is in any way godllike; I’m sure it’s not. But I couldn’t worship a God who couldn’t get mad.)

Ah, the dreaded question of personal bias. I do think we–historians and everyone else–have a responsibility to consider all the evidence, maybe especially the evidence that cuts against our personal biases. We have a responsibility (a hard one, one I don’t live up to well) to seek out other points of view and force ourselves to consider what we disagree with, as well as why we have such strong feelings about it.

But that said, there’s no one on the planet who doesn’t have personal biases. And again, I wouldn’t want to be friends with someone who had no personal biases, nor to worship a God who had achieved some ideal of detached rational objective consideration of all realities. Would you?

]]> By: Eve http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133039 Eve Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:49:40 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133039 <blockquote>I’d love to see more testimony-building in the ‘nacle (like JDC’s this weekend).</blockquote> The problem is, though, that what nourishes testimonies is highly individual. I think we need to step outside the idea that only particular types of discourse, like the Ensign, can nourish our testimonies. Clearly they do for some and in some cases (at times the Ensign and such certainly provide me with spiritual nourishment). But I also find the frank discussion of difficult issues to be essential to my faith. I need desperately to see that people can confront various difficulties both honestly and faithfully and manage to go on in the Church. The Ensign and faith-promoting stories are not going to provide that for me. The Bloggernacle and similar fora, on the other hand, do fill some of that need. If you find that the Bloggernacle and such discussions don't nourish your testimony, that's perfectly legitimate. But I think it's misguided to try to change the Bloggernacle into something that would nourish your testimony, personally, instead of just letting it be what it is for those it does sustain. I'm not calling up the Engisn and trying to get them to address more of my personal testimony needs; I realize that they play a vital role for many people's spiritual lives just as they are. By the same token, maybe it's not particularly useful for you to call for the Bloggernacle to made into something that you, personally, find testimony-building. Perhaps it already <em>is</em> testimony building (it's important not mix the Bloggernacle up with the DAMU, for instance)--just not for you personally.

I’d love to see more testimony-building in the ‘nacle (like JDC’s this weekend).

The problem is, though, that what nourishes testimonies is highly individual. I think we need to step outside the idea that only particular types of discourse, like the Ensign, can nourish our testimonies. Clearly they do for some and in some cases (at times the Ensign and such certainly provide me with spiritual nourishment). But I also find the frank discussion of difficult issues to be essential to my faith. I need desperately to see that people can confront various difficulties both honestly and faithfully and manage to go on in the Church. The Ensign and faith-promoting stories are not going to provide that for me. The Bloggernacle and similar fora, on the other hand, do fill some of that need.

If you find that the Bloggernacle and such discussions don’t nourish your testimony, that’s perfectly legitimate. But I think it’s misguided to try to change the Bloggernacle into something that would nourish your testimony, personally, instead of just letting it be what it is for those it does sustain. I’m not calling up the Engisn and trying to get them to address more of my personal testimony needs; I realize that they play a vital role for many people’s spiritual lives just as they are. By the same token, maybe it’s not particularly useful for you to call for the Bloggernacle to made into something that you, personally, find testimony-building. Perhaps it already is testimony building (it’s important not mix the Bloggernacle up with the DAMU, for instance)–just not for you personally.

]]> By: m&m http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133038 m&m Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:30:15 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133038 p.s. I realize, too, that this kind of forum can be personally helpful and/or interesting (obviously there's something about discussion I like :) ), so I don't mean to imply that it's all useless, either. p.s. I realize, too, that this kind of forum can be personally helpful and/or interesting (obviously there’s something about discussion I like :) ), so I don’t mean to imply that it’s all useless, either.

]]> By: m&m http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133037 m&m Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:23:55 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133037 Kristine, I'm sorry I've annoyed you. My comments were not directed at you personally, btw...just general statements about the 'nacle and how I think that the idea that complaining online is somehow a noble endeavor to help keep the church in line is simply misguided. Marjorie, I feel the same way about ERS. I get tired of her being held up as the example of revolutionary feminism, especially because I don't think we can compare our time to hers...the church was still in a significant formative stage, and nearly anyone could have direct access to the prophet to give feedback. Times are much, much different in both senses today. Kristine,
I’m sorry I’ve annoyed you. My comments were not directed at you personally, btw…just general statements about the ‘nacle and how I think that the idea that complaining online is somehow a noble endeavor to help keep the church in line is simply misguided.

Marjorie,
I feel the same way about ERS. I get tired of her being held up as the example of revolutionary feminism, especially because I don’t think we can compare our time to hers…the church was still in a significant formative stage, and nearly anyone could have direct access to the prophet to give feedback. Times are much, much different in both senses today.

]]> By: Matt W. http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133036 Matt W. Wed, 04 Apr 2007 18:18:42 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133036 Kristine, how many "eminent historians" actually study Mormonism? I can think of only a handful of living ones. And I can't imagine any of them being livid about anything. Anyone who would be livid with anything is probably not very professional and is clouded by personal bias. Kristine, how many “eminent historians” actually study Mormonism? I can think of only a handful of living ones. And I can’t imagine any of them being livid about anything.

Anyone who would be livid with anything is probably not very professional and is clouded by personal bias.

]]> By: Kristine http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133035 Kristine Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:55:12 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133035 Marjorie, that's a pretty reductive view of what the women were wanting to do in Nauvoo--I think plenty of eminent historians would take issue with you. In fact, I know a couple who would be LIVID with your phrasing. And if you don't think ERS rocked the boat (and a great many other conveyances), well, I can suggest some bibliography... I don't think she thought in terms of "orthodox" and not, and I frankly don't think that's a very useful way to think about different approaches among contemporary Mormon women, either. Marjorie, that’s a pretty reductive view of what the women were wanting to do in Nauvoo–I think plenty of eminent historians would take issue with you. In fact, I know a couple who would be LIVID with your phrasing.

And if you don’t think ERS rocked the boat (and a great many other conveyances), well, I can suggest some bibliography… I don’t think she thought in terms of “orthodox” and not, and I frankly don’t think that’s a very useful way to think about different approaches among contemporary Mormon women, either.

]]> By: Marjorie Conder http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133034 Marjorie Conder Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:51:23 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133034 And as to who cares about RS--I care! And as to who cares about RS–I care!

]]> By: Marjorie Conder http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133033 Marjorie Conder Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:49:11 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133033 For those longing for the days of Eliza R. Snow. She was about as orthodox as m&m. She certainly did a lot and left a lasting legacy, however I'm at at a loss to think of any "boatrocking" ERS did. Also the RS was not founded at the instigation of the women. In fact they had no idea grander than a simple sewing circle (they were making shirts for the workmen on the Nauvoo Temple). They asked ERS to draw up a simple constitution for their sewing circle, which she did and then showed it to JS. He replied that God had accepted of the (women's) sacrifices and he (God) had "something better" for them. Joseph then invited a group to meet with him in his red brick store where the RS was organized. Emma became president and ERS as the first secretary recorded most of what is written in minutebook of the "Female Relief Society of Nauvoo". She also carried this important document across the plains and preserved it. It is now in the vault of the Historical Dept. of the Church. From my perspective the vision of RS has not yet been realized, but I think we are more on track now than we have been for about a century. (And I believe that much that has been lost will yet return.) For those longing for the days of Eliza R. Snow. She was about as orthodox as m&m. She certainly did a lot and left a lasting legacy, however I’m at at a loss to think of any “boatrocking” ERS did. Also the RS was not founded at the instigation of the women. In fact they had no idea grander than a simple sewing circle (they were making shirts for the workmen on the Nauvoo Temple). They asked ERS to draw up a simple constitution for their sewing circle, which she did and then showed it to JS. He replied that God had accepted of the (women’s) sacrifices and he (God) had “something better” for them. Joseph then invited a group to meet with him in his red brick store where the RS was organized. Emma became president and ERS as the first secretary recorded most of what is written in minutebook of the “Female Relief Society of Nauvoo”. She also carried this important document across the plains and preserved it. It is now in the vault of the Historical Dept. of the Church. From my perspective the vision of RS has not yet been realized, but I think we are more on track now than we have been for about a century. (And I believe that much that has been lost will yet return.)

]]> By: KLC http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/03/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133032 KLC Wed, 04 Apr 2007 15:42:47 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/relief-society-who-cares/#comment-133032 Getting back to the original post, this isn't a gender issue, no matter how much some would like to see it that way. With the expansion of the quorums of 70 and with increasing correlation all presidencies and authorities other than the 12 have suffered a diminution of attention. Anyone over the age of 45 or 50 knows that not so long ago the Presiding Bishopric was a much more powerful and visible presence in the church hierarchy than it is today. The presiding Bishop was a personality and a symbol, whereas today's Presiding Bishop, as evidenced by his talk in the Priesthood session, is just another 70 with an extra title. Older members will also recall that the seven presidents of the 70 used to be charismatic officeholders on par with the 12. Think of Vaughn Featherstone and Marion Hanks. There are still 7 presidendts of the 70...can you name even one? Again, they are now just another anonymous 70 with an extra title. The RS presidency has suffered the same fate, withering in public persona as the number of GAs grows and power is concentrated by correlation. Getting back to the original post, this isn’t a gender issue, no matter how much some would like to see it that way. With the expansion of the quorums of 70 and with increasing correlation all presidencies and authorities other than the 12 have suffered a diminution of attention.

Anyone over the age of 45 or 50 knows that not so long ago the Presiding Bishopric was a much more powerful and visible presence in the church hierarchy than it is today. The presiding Bishop was a personality and a symbol, whereas today’s Presiding Bishop, as evidenced by his talk in the Priesthood session, is just another 70 with an extra title.

Older members will also recall that the seven presidents of the 70 used to be charismatic officeholders on par with the 12. Think of Vaughn Featherstone and Marion Hanks. There are still 7 presidendts of the 70…can you name even one? Again, they are now just another anonymous 70 with an extra title.

The RS presidency has suffered the same fate, withering in public persona as the number of GAs grows and power is concentrated by correlation.

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