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	<title>Comments on: BCC Papers 2/2: Barney, Elkenah</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: By Common Consent &#187; My Publications</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115626</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[By Common Consent &#187; My Publications]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115626</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] â€œOn Elkenah as Canaanite El,â€ BCC Papers 2/2 [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] â€œOn Elkenah as Canaanite El,â€ BCC Papers 2/2 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 18:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris, I&#039;m not aware of an attestation of the specific hypocoristic form El Qoneh.

Kinahhi is attested in the Tell El Amarna letters and at Bogazkoy.

No. 3 is my personal favorite.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I&#8217;m not aware of an attestation of the specific hypocoristic form El Qoneh.</p>
<p>Kinahhi is attested in the Tell El Amarna letters and at Bogazkoy.</p>
<p>No. 3 is my personal favorite.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Smith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115624</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 06:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115624</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin,

I was hoping you might clarify a couple points.  In your paper you write,

&gt;&gt;â€˜El qoneh â€œEl the Creator.â€ This would be a hypocoristic form of the well attested Canaanite epithet &#039;l qn ars, &quot;El, Creator of the Earth,&quot; which is itself a shorter version of the later and longer form of the epithet found at Gen. 14:19, 22: &#039;el &#039;elyon qoneh shamayim we&#039;arets &quot;EI Most High, Creator of the Heaven and the Earth.â€37 In a Hittite myth borrowed from Canaan prior to 1200 B.C.38 El is called &quot;Elkunirsa&quot; (the Hittite spelling of West Semitic &#039;I qn ars). This El was the husband of the goddess Asherah (=Ashertu) and lived in a tent at the headwaters of the Euphrates (=Mala) River.39

...

&gt;&gt;Kinahhi itself is attested earlier than number six, and this proposal does not  require that we posit a hypocoristic form.

Two questions:

1) Is the hypocorism el qoneh ever attested that you are aware?  I gather from your article that it is not.  Wouldn&#039;t that significantly reduce the likelihood that this is the epithet intended?  I also wonder whether an opponent of the deity (i.e. Abraham) would apply to it an optional epithet intended to convey its sovereignty as creator of heaven and earth.
2) You mention that Kinahhi is attested earlier than &#039;l qn &#039;ars.  Can you give us an idea as to how early each of these is attested?

I do like number 5.  While we know absolutely nothing about this mysterious Mesopotamian deity, it is at least attested in basically the form the BoA leads us to expect (which seemingly can&#039;t be said for either 3 or 6), and that form is given as if it is the deity&#039;s proper name, rather than El + a fawning epithet.  On the other hand, we have no reason to think that this relatively unknown god would have the sort of preeminence attributed to Elkenah in the BoA (&quot;gods of Elkenah,&quot; for example).

Number 3 appears to me to be the best of your options.  I&#039;d feel better about it if it were attested, though.  The BoA repeats the name Elkenah over and over, like it&#039;s a coherent unit, a proper name.  It doesn&#039;t switch between epithets the way a lot of Syrian texts seem to do.

-Chris]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>I was hoping you might clarify a couple points.  In your paper you write,</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;â€˜El qoneh â€œEl the Creator.â€ This would be a hypocoristic form of the well attested Canaanite epithet &#8216;l qn ars, &#8220;El, Creator of the Earth,&#8221; which is itself a shorter version of the later and longer form of the epithet found at Gen. 14:19, 22: &#8216;el &#8216;elyon qoneh shamayim we&#8217;arets &#8220;EI Most High, Creator of the Heaven and the Earth.â€37 In a Hittite myth borrowed from Canaan prior to 1200 B.C.38 El is called &#8220;Elkunirsa&#8221; (the Hittite spelling of West Semitic &#8216;I qn ars). This El was the husband of the goddess Asherah (=Ashertu) and lived in a tent at the headwaters of the Euphrates (=Mala) River.39</p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;Kinahhi itself is attested earlier than number six, and this proposal does not  require that we posit a hypocoristic form.</p>
<p>Two questions:</p>
<p>1) Is the hypocorism el qoneh ever attested that you are aware?  I gather from your article that it is not.  Wouldn&#8217;t that significantly reduce the likelihood that this is the epithet intended?  I also wonder whether an opponent of the deity (i.e. Abraham) would apply to it an optional epithet intended to convey its sovereignty as creator of heaven and earth.<br />
2) You mention that Kinahhi is attested earlier than &#8216;l qn &#8216;ars.  Can you give us an idea as to how early each of these is attested?</p>
<p>I do like number 5.  While we know absolutely nothing about this mysterious Mesopotamian deity, it is at least attested in basically the form the BoA leads us to expect (which seemingly can&#8217;t be said for either 3 or 6), and that form is given as if it is the deity&#8217;s proper name, rather than El + a fawning epithet.  On the other hand, we have no reason to think that this relatively unknown god would have the sort of preeminence attributed to Elkenah in the BoA (&#8220;gods of Elkenah,&#8221; for example).</p>
<p>Number 3 appears to me to be the best of your options.  I&#8217;d feel better about it if it were attested, though.  The BoA repeats the name Elkenah over and over, like it&#8217;s a coherent unit, a proper name.  It doesn&#8217;t switch between epithets the way a lot of Syrian texts seem to do.</p>
<p>-Chris</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Smith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115623</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 22:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115623</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam, open a mormondiscussions.com account and send a PM to Brent Metcalfe.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, open a mormondiscussions.com account and send a PM to Brent Metcalfe.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam MB</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115622</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam MB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115622</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris: Aha. I don&#039;t believe what I&#039;ve seen of the reverse engineering thesis either, though I think that may be an unnecessarily narrow attempt to mediate the relationship between glyph, papyrus, and revelatory experience.

I should send a copy to Brent. People have his email?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris: Aha. I don&#8217;t believe what I&#8217;ve seen of the reverse engineering thesis either, though I think that may be an unnecessarily narrow attempt to mediate the relationship between glyph, papyrus, and revelatory experience.</p>
<p>I should send a copy to Brent. People have his email?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Osborne</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115621</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Osborne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I read the BofA within its own context it appears to me that Elkenah was a mortal man having his own priestly cohort dedicated to his god of choice - a state god. This god is figuratively represented by one of the characters under the Lion Couch.

In turn, there were four other kings mentioned in the narrative: Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and Pharaoh. Figurative images of their gods are conveniently located under the Lion Couch. Bear in mind, however, the images under the couch are simply Egyptian proxies and are not the literal image of the gods they represent.

Anyway, thatâ€™s my opinion.

Paul Osborne

http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id140.htm
http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id527.htm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read the BofA within its own context it appears to me that Elkenah was a mortal man having his own priestly cohort dedicated to his god of choice &#8211; a state god. This god is figuratively represented by one of the characters under the Lion Couch.</p>
<p>In turn, there were four other kings mentioned in the narrative: Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and Pharaoh. Figurative images of their gods are conveniently located under the Lion Couch. Bear in mind, however, the images under the couch are simply Egyptian proxies and are not the literal image of the gods they represent.</p>
<p>Anyway, thatâ€™s my opinion.</p>
<p>Paul Osborne</p>
<p><a href="http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id140.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id140.htm</a><br />
<a href="http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id527.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id527.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Smith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115620</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 21:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115620</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam,

What I mean is that while a few details of transcription, coloration, and chemical ink analysis are not clear/possible from the black-and-white photocopies, those photocopies (coupled with other historical data) are adequate for discerning the purpose of the documents.  They are even more adequate for discerning what their purpose was &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt;-- namely, a reverse-engineering experiment.  I agree with you, though, that analysis of the documents is far from over, and that nobody from either side has yet published a really thorough study.

By the way, you should run your paper by Brent Metcalfe before submitting it for publication.  He&#039;d probably have some good feedback and he&#039;d undoubtedly appreciate having access to an advance copy of the article while writing his book.

-Chris]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,</p>
<p>What I mean is that while a few details of transcription, coloration, and chemical ink analysis are not clear/possible from the black-and-white photocopies, those photocopies (coupled with other historical data) are adequate for discerning the purpose of the documents.  They are even more adequate for discerning what their purpose was <em>not</em>&#8211; namely, a reverse-engineering experiment.  I agree with you, though, that analysis of the documents is far from over, and that nobody from either side has yet published a really thorough study.</p>
<p>By the way, you should run your paper by Brent Metcalfe before submitting it for publication.  He&#8217;d probably have some good feedback and he&#8217;d undoubtedly appreciate having access to an advance copy of the article while writing his book.</p>
<p>-Chris</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115619</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 21:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115619</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Chris, I missed that one.

Thanks, Jonathan, I appreciate your expert advice.  I tossed that in merely as an etymological curiousity, so I&#039;ll delete it upon further publication.  J. Stapley already mentioned that KEP means Kirtland Egyptian Papers.  I also happened to write the FAIR Wiki article J. links to.  It has some errors in it and does not reflect the latest research, but it conveys the basic idea of what these documents are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Chris, I missed that one.</p>
<p>Thanks, Jonathan, I appreciate your expert advice.  I tossed that in merely as an etymological curiousity, so I&#8217;ll delete it upon further publication.  J. Stapley already mentioned that KEP means Kirtland Egyptian Papers.  I also happened to write the FAIR Wiki article J. links to.  It has some errors in it and does not reflect the latest research, but it conveys the basic idea of what these documents are.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115618</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Stapley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 20:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115618</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jonathan, it stands for Kirtland Egyptian Papers.  The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/Kirtland_Egyptian_Papers&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;FAIR Wiki&lt;/a&gt; has some background info.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan, it stands for Kirtland Egyptian Papers.  The <a href="http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/Kirtland_Egyptian_Papers" rel="nofollow">FAIR Wiki</a> has some background info.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115617</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Green]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 20:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/bcc-papers-2-2-barney/#comment-115617</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin, while looking through your paper and the comments, I noticed two things:

1. What does KEP stand for? Is it the papyrus used for the Book of Abraham?

2. Your paper would be better off without the sentence &quot;This word actually is a distant ancestor of English &#039;knee&#039; (by way of Greek gonu, gnu).&quot; While there are some loan words from Semitic into Indo-European daughter languages by way of Greek, the PIE root for &quot;knee&quot; is attested all over Indo-European, including the dialects far off the beaten path, and knees aren&#039;t really the kind of cultural innovation where one might expect to find a loan word for the latest fad in the Levant. There are theories that posit a common ancestor for PIE, Semitic, and other language families, but they are still largely the province of loons, crackpots, and statisticians. Your paper would be better off if it didn&#039;t appeari to involve itself in that argument.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, while looking through your paper and the comments, I noticed two things:</p>
<p>1. What does KEP stand for? Is it the papyrus used for the Book of Abraham?</p>
<p>2. Your paper would be better off without the sentence &#8220;This word actually is a distant ancestor of English &#8216;knee&#8217; (by way of Greek gonu, gnu).&#8221; While there are some loan words from Semitic into Indo-European daughter languages by way of Greek, the PIE root for &#8220;knee&#8221; is attested all over Indo-European, including the dialects far off the beaten path, and knees aren&#8217;t really the kind of cultural innovation where one might expect to find a loan word for the latest fad in the Levant. There are theories that posit a common ancestor for PIE, Semitic, and other language families, but they are still largely the province of loons, crackpots, and statisticians. Your paper would be better off if it didn&#8217;t appeari to involve itself in that argument.</p>
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