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	<title>Comments on: DNA Mormons?</title>
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		<title>By: JA Benson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/dna-mormons/#comment-87499</link>
		<dc:creator>JA Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 05:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/dna-mormons/#comment-87499</guid>
		<description>I need to thank you all for a wonderful experience.  When I submitted this post of Ronan I honestly thought that I would be passed over.  You all have made a fun week for me.  We experienced lots of ups and downs in the last week.  First our old dog died probably from the dog food poisoning we have all heard about.  My oldest boy got his mission papers in and we received the news that we will be traveling to China in May to pick up our youngest child. The china cabinet fell. We lost valuable items and sentimental things as well.  The good news is that no one was injured.    So I apologize for not answering you all in a timely fashion.

#2 Ronan thanks so much for giving me the opportunity.

J Nelson-Seawright #3, Lamonte #4 and Kevin Barney #15- I have always been big fans and appreciate your kind comments.

John Mansfield #6- Thanks for your wonderful data and knowledge.  You have given me areas to study.

Mark IV #11 and CJ Douglass #12, Kevinf #26, and Whitney Johnson #43- I have made copies of your comments and have taped them to my bathroom mirror. Now when I have a bad hair day; your comments will make my day.

Jill Johnson #33 what little us vs. them that there once was in my mind, I think it is gone now.  Thanks dear friend.

Margaret #37- You have such a â€œbig tent of humanity soulâ€ I am sure that you have lots of other soul as well.

Thanks Woodboy #41 for your much needed scientific knowledge

John Taber #52- I am glad that you looked at your lines.  I think that this was the purpose of my post.  We need to be open-minded when we come to our genealogy.  I do not know what to say about your German- French family.  My Polish family lived on the very edge of Poland near Russia.  The ancestor(s) who left here were probably under Russian rule at the time.  I have learned that to be Polish is a people. Whether they were ruled by Germans or Russians, they always were Polish. Perhaps the Germans and the French felt the same way. Or maybe that were proud to be either. Your comments show just how diverse Europeans can be.

Thanks CBiden #53.  I think like you that Switzerland was probably a very tolerant place.  Mikeâ€™s Indians did not have to change their names to fit in and also it tells me that there was a big East Indian community there too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I need to thank you all for a wonderful experience.  When I submitted this post of Ronan I honestly thought that I would be passed over.  You all have made a fun week for me.  We experienced lots of ups and downs in the last week.  First our old dog died probably from the dog food poisoning we have all heard about.  My oldest boy got his mission papers in and we received the news that we will be traveling to China in May to pick up our youngest child. The china cabinet fell. We lost valuable items and sentimental things as well.  The good news is that no one was injured.    So I apologize for not answering you all in a timely fashion.</p>
<p>#2 Ronan thanks so much for giving me the opportunity.</p>
<p>J Nelson-Seawright #3, Lamonte #4 and Kevin Barney #15- I have always been big fans and appreciate your kind comments.</p>
<p>John Mansfield #6- Thanks for your wonderful data and knowledge.  You have given me areas to study.</p>
<p>Mark IV #11 and CJ Douglass #12, Kevinf #26, and Whitney Johnson #43- I have made copies of your comments and have taped them to my bathroom mirror. Now when I have a bad hair day; your comments will make my day.</p>
<p>Jill Johnson #33 what little us vs. them that there once was in my mind, I think it is gone now.  Thanks dear friend.</p>
<p>Margaret #37- You have such a â€œbig tent of humanity soulâ€ I am sure that you have lots of other soul as well.</p>
<p>Thanks Woodboy #41 for your much needed scientific knowledge</p>
<p>John Taber #52- I am glad that you looked at your lines.  I think that this was the purpose of my post.  We need to be open-minded when we come to our genealogy.  I do not know what to say about your German- French family.  My Polish family lived on the very edge of Poland near Russia.  The ancestor(s) who left here were probably under Russian rule at the time.  I have learned that to be Polish is a people. Whether they were ruled by Germans or Russians, they always were Polish. Perhaps the Germans and the French felt the same way. Or maybe that were proud to be either. Your comments show just how diverse Europeans can be.</p>
<p>Thanks CBiden #53.  I think like you that Switzerland was probably a very tolerant place.  Mikeâ€™s Indians did not have to change their names to fit in and also it tells me that there was a big East Indian community there too.</p>
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		<title>By: CBiden</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/dna-mormons/#comment-87498</link>
		<dc:creator>CBiden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 06:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/dna-mormons/#comment-87498</guid>
		<description>Switzerland has four linguistic traditions: German, Italian, French and Romanxh.  Each of these traditions can, to some extent, reflect ethnic divisions.  It must be remembered that Switzerland, although it may appear homogenous, has been a crossroads of cultures and nations for thousands of years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Switzerland has four linguistic traditions: German, Italian, French and Romanxh.  Each of these traditions can, to some extent, reflect ethnic divisions.  It must be remembered that Switzerland, although it may appear homogenous, has been a crossroads of cultures and nations for thousands of years.</p>
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		<title>By: John Taber</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/dna-mormons/#comment-87497</link>
		<dc:creator>John Taber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 16:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/dna-mormons/#comment-87497</guid>
		<description>JA Benson #13:

Yes, I&#039;ve found that a good bit, English ancestors having French, Welsh, Scottish, Portugese or Greek ancestors; Dutch ancestors having German or Norwegian.  One great-grandfather&#039;s parents and grandparents came to Utah from Switzerland, and while all the ancestors I&#039;ve found have German given names, some of the surnames look more Italian or French.

I don&#039;t know how to classify a bunch of ancestors who were born near the present French-German border.  Some of them were in France but had German names, some were in what is now Germany but used both French and German forms of their names.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JA Benson #13:</p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;ve found that a good bit, English ancestors having French, Welsh, Scottish, Portugese or Greek ancestors; Dutch ancestors having German or Norwegian.  One great-grandfather&#8217;s parents and grandparents came to Utah from Switzerland, and while all the ancestors I&#8217;ve found have German given names, some of the surnames look more Italian or French.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how to classify a bunch of ancestors who were born near the present French-German border.  Some of them were in France but had German names, some were in what is now Germany but used both French and German forms of their names.</p>
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		<title>By: JA Benson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/dna-mormons/#comment-87496</link>
		<dc:creator>JA Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 15:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/dna-mormons/#comment-87496</guid>
		<description>Smb,

Quoting from DNA Tribes lab is University of New Mexico:
â€œThese results are your Top 20 matches in a database of 445 native populations that have experienced minimal movement and admixture in modern history (roughly, the last 500 years). Individual matches do not necessary indicate recent social or cultural affiliation with a particular ethnicity. Instead, the geographical distribution of your Native Population Match results indicates your most likely deep ancestral origins.â€

It is not â€œsillyâ€ that my husband has a lot of East Indian ancestors.  1) Photos of ancestors that are obviously not all that Western European.  2)  I found in Family search names like Wassem, Zagli, Dubi, Kohli, and Mani.  3) There is a community of east Indians in Bern, Switzerland who have been there a long time. 4) Current family members have the hair, skin tone and facial features of non-western Europeans.

All you have to do is watch The History Channel to see the vast migrations of people through out the world.  My point is that God directed his people to â€œgather every nation, Kindred, Tongue and people.â€  God used world events to gather those people to Western Europe especially Great Britain so that people in far flung places like Iran or India would be found by LDS missionaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Smb,</p>
<p>Quoting from DNA Tribes lab is University of New Mexico:<br />
â€œThese results are your Top 20 matches in a database of 445 native populations that have experienced minimal movement and admixture in modern history (roughly, the last 500 years). Individual matches do not necessary indicate recent social or cultural affiliation with a particular ethnicity. Instead, the geographical distribution of your Native Population Match results indicates your most likely deep ancestral origins.â€</p>
<p>It is not â€œsillyâ€ that my husband has a lot of East Indian ancestors.  1) Photos of ancestors that are obviously not all that Western European.  2)  I found in Family search names like Wassem, Zagli, Dubi, Kohli, and Mani.  3) There is a community of east Indians in Bern, Switzerland who have been there a long time. 4) Current family members have the hair, skin tone and facial features of non-western Europeans.</p>
<p>All you have to do is watch The History Channel to see the vast migrations of people through out the world.  My point is that God directed his people to â€œgather every nation, Kindred, Tongue and people.â€  God used world events to gather those people to Western Europe especially Great Britain so that people in far flung places like Iran or India would be found by LDS missionaries.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/dna-mormons/#comment-87495</link>
		<dc:creator>smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/dna-mormons/#comment-87495</guid>
		<description>This kind of shotgun approach without prior hypothesis is notorious for generating false positive findings.  Remember, they have to define what the source population means before they can define your association with it, and if all populations are intermixed, the probabilities will be very skewed.  Then remember that at standard statistical testing cutoffs, 5 of every 100 associations will prove to be entirely spurious.  So if they are testing you against a thousand populations, there will be 50 false positives (this isn&#039;t exact because of the way the analysis is framed, but it&#039;s close enough to be relevant.)

It may be something as silly as your husband has one (more likely few) tamil ancestor(s) way back, but from him/them your husband (but perhaps not many of his cousins) still has reasonably identifiable genetic material in the background of standard european traits.  Because this is identifiable, it will give a very high odds ratio, but it is does not appear to suggest anything about whether he is predominantly Tamil in extraction.  These are not, according to what you&#039;ve posted, relative weights of your percentage ancestry, it&#039;s how identifiable certain individual DNA segments appear to be, and those, depending on the algorithm, could be quite different things.

Still the basic point that 100% racial purity is a cultural myth is absolutely valid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This kind of shotgun approach without prior hypothesis is notorious for generating false positive findings.  Remember, they have to define what the source population means before they can define your association with it, and if all populations are intermixed, the probabilities will be very skewed.  Then remember that at standard statistical testing cutoffs, 5 of every 100 associations will prove to be entirely spurious.  So if they are testing you against a thousand populations, there will be 50 false positives (this isn&#8217;t exact because of the way the analysis is framed, but it&#8217;s close enough to be relevant.)</p>
<p>It may be something as silly as your husband has one (more likely few) tamil ancestor(s) way back, but from him/them your husband (but perhaps not many of his cousins) still has reasonably identifiable genetic material in the background of standard european traits.  Because this is identifiable, it will give a very high odds ratio, but it is does not appear to suggest anything about whether he is predominantly Tamil in extraction.  These are not, according to what you&#8217;ve posted, relative weights of your percentage ancestry, it&#8217;s how identifiable certain individual DNA segments appear to be, and those, depending on the algorithm, could be quite different things.</p>
<p>Still the basic point that 100% racial purity is a cultural myth is absolutely valid.</p>
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		<title>By: woodboy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/dna-mormons/#comment-87494</link>
		<dc:creator>woodboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/dna-mormons/#comment-87494</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s worth noting that that is a different kind of test. They are doing mtDNA and Y chromosomes. Neither of these forms of DNA undergo recombination, so it&#039;s possible to trace them back quite far, unlike the autosomal markers used in the other analyses. mtDNA analysis is primarily how they determine historical migration patterns.

The downside of course is that you only get info about two of your ancestors (or one if you are female) because Y chromosomes are strictly paternally inherited and mtDNA is overwhelmingly maternally inherited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that that is a different kind of test. They are doing mtDNA and Y chromosomes. Neither of these forms of DNA undergo recombination, so it&#8217;s possible to trace them back quite far, unlike the autosomal markers used in the other analyses. mtDNA analysis is primarily how they determine historical migration patterns.</p>
<p>The downside of course is that you only get info about two of your ancestors (or one if you are female) because Y chromosomes are strictly paternally inherited and mtDNA is overwhelmingly maternally inherited.</p>
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		<title>By: Space Chick</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/dna-mormons/#comment-87493</link>
		<dc:creator>Space Chick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/dna-mormons/#comment-87493</guid>
		<description>National Geographic is also selling DNA kits for $100, and I would trust their results.

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/participate.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>National Geographic is also selling DNA kits for $100, and I would trust their results.</p>
<p><a href="https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/participate.html" rel="nofollow">https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/participate.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: woodboy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/dna-mormons/#comment-87492</link>
		<dc:creator>woodboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/dna-mormons/#comment-87492</guid>
		<description>I think the take away message is that the high numbers are pretty reliable (like the Tamil Indian in your example), but not to put too much stock in those very low numbers. Hard to say for certain without a published metholodogy, but my guess is a statistical test would show very weak significance for most of those values at the bottom of the list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the take away message is that the high numbers are pretty reliable (like the Tamil Indian in your example), but not to put too much stock in those very low numbers. Hard to say for certain without a published metholodogy, but my guess is a statistical test would show very weak significance for most of those values at the bottom of the list.</p>
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		<title>By: JA Benson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/dna-mormons/#comment-87491</link>
		<dc:creator>JA Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/dna-mormons/#comment-87491</guid>
		<description>Whitney #43 and Sterling #41,

I am not a math person, but I will try to from the information given to us from DNA Tribes.

 All matches can be compared against each other as odds ratios. Population Match results can be interpreted in terms of their likelihood scores and geographical patterns. Each Native Population Match is listed with a Match Likelihood Index score that indicates your odds of belonging to that population relative to your odds of belonging to a generic human population.
Higher scores indicate your genetic profile is strongly represented in a population, while lower scores indicate marginal representation in a population.
Anyway clear as mud.  What this means to me is that Mike is very Tamil, Nadu Indian and not so much Calabria, Italian.  I am very Podlasie, Poland and not so much South African.

The higher the numbers the closer this individual is to us.  The Tamil Indian probably mixed with some Swiss is Mikeâ€™s grandmother. The Swiss doesn&#039;t show up because it has not been a stationary population.  The Podlasie, Polish is probably my Great (or Great Great) Grandfather.   I am basing my identifications on the appearance of current relatives and looking back at the earliest photos I have of our ancestors.  I have also looked at related lines and have found the same traits in these family members as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whitney #43 and Sterling #41,</p>
<p>I am not a math person, but I will try to from the information given to us from DNA Tribes.</p>
<p> All matches can be compared against each other as odds ratios. Population Match results can be interpreted in terms of their likelihood scores and geographical patterns. Each Native Population Match is listed with a Match Likelihood Index score that indicates your odds of belonging to that population relative to your odds of belonging to a generic human population.<br />
Higher scores indicate your genetic profile is strongly represented in a population, while lower scores indicate marginal representation in a population.<br />
Anyway clear as mud.  What this means to me is that Mike is very Tamil, Nadu Indian and not so much Calabria, Italian.  I am very Podlasie, Poland and not so much South African.</p>
<p>The higher the numbers the closer this individual is to us.  The Tamil Indian probably mixed with some Swiss is Mikeâ€™s grandmother. The Swiss doesn&#8217;t show up because it has not been a stationary population.  The Podlasie, Polish is probably my Great (or Great Great) Grandfather.   I am basing my identifications on the appearance of current relatives and looking back at the earliest photos I have of our ancestors.  I have also looked at related lines and have found the same traits in these family members as well.</p>
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		<title>By: woodboy</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/05/dna-mormons/#comment-87490</link>
		<dc:creator>woodboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 13:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/dna-mormons/#comment-87490</guid>
		<description>Sorry, can&#039;t figure out how to add links, or edit previous comments.

www.hapmap.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, can&#8217;t figure out how to add links, or edit previous comments.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.hapmap.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.hapmap.org</a></p>
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