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	<title>Comments on: Hugh Nibley: Mormon Dissident</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: CS Eric</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101377</link>
		<dc:creator>CS Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 15:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I had the experience of being in one of Nibley&#039;s Pearl of Great Price classes, and came off with two main impressions: first, the entire thing was over my head; and second, when Nibley taught Pearl of Great Price, he was teaching the endowment ceremony.  I both loved and feared his class.  I am certain he graded on a curve, otherwise I would not have received the B grade from it.

I literally ran into him a couple of years later in downtown Salt Lake City.  I had driven up there to go to Pres Kimball&#039;s viewing, and as I walked back to my car, I nearly knocked over an old man, who, because of his worn and mismatched clothes, I believed at first was homeless.  It was only when he looked up at me as we made the awkward apologies for the near miss that I realized it was my old professor, Bro Nibley.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had the experience of being in one of Nibley&#8217;s Pearl of Great Price classes, and came off with two main impressions: first, the entire thing was over my head; and second, when Nibley taught Pearl of Great Price, he was teaching the endowment ceremony.  I both loved and feared his class.  I am certain he graded on a curve, otherwise I would not have received the B grade from it.</p>
<p>I literally ran into him a couple of years later in downtown Salt Lake City.  I had driven up there to go to Pres Kimball&#8217;s viewing, and as I walked back to my car, I nearly knocked over an old man, who, because of his worn and mismatched clothes, I believed at first was homeless.  It was only when he looked up at me as we made the awkward apologies for the near miss that I realized it was my old professor, Bro Nibley.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Jones</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101376</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 02:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Fascinating. I&#039;ve been a fan of Nibley&#039;s works for a lifetime and, on the whole, never sensed any sort of spirit of &quot;inappropriate&quot; dissent or criticism of the &quot;Lord&#039;s anointed&quot;. There always was an acknowledgement of the divinity of the mission of the church and the Kingdom apparent in his work. Yet, because of that devotion to the larger picture, as has been pointed out,and because of his brillance and undisputed devotion to seeking scholarly Truth within the context of his testimony, he could play the critic from time to time publically...and do it in a fashion that was helpful. I viewed his commentary at times as a highly effective foil to the oddities of social norms growing out the LDS subculture. Often, the eclesiastical leaders I&#039;ve known have welcomed his commentary and appreciated the penetrating insights Hugh could articulate like no other. His observations often &lt;em&gt;needed&lt;/em&gt; to be said, but only he could say them in a an oddly irreverent fashion that still felt credible and somehow &quot;appropriate&quot; to the subculture. (To be fair, I have the distinct advantage of never having to deal with living in the religious-cultural milieu of Northern Utah / Provo since college. He will be missed, indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating. I&#8217;ve been a fan of Nibley&#8217;s works for a lifetime and, on the whole, never sensed any sort of spirit of &#8220;inappropriate&#8221; dissent or criticism of the &#8220;Lord&#8217;s anointed&#8221;. There always was an acknowledgement of the divinity of the mission of the church and the Kingdom apparent in his work. Yet, because of that devotion to the larger picture, as has been pointed out,and because of his brillance and undisputed devotion to seeking scholarly Truth within the context of his testimony, he could play the critic from time to time publically&#8230;and do it in a fashion that was helpful. I viewed his commentary at times as a highly effective foil to the oddities of social norms growing out the LDS subculture. Often, the eclesiastical leaders I&#8217;ve known have welcomed his commentary and appreciated the penetrating insights Hugh could articulate like no other. His observations often <em>needed</em> to be said, but only he could say them in a an oddly irreverent fashion that still felt credible and somehow &#8220;appropriate&#8221; to the subculture. (To be fair, I have the distinct advantage of never having to deal with living in the religious-cultural milieu of Northern Utah / Provo since college. He will be missed, indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101375</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 18:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101375</guid>
		<description>Post #6

Thomas,

 As a fellow biz owner, I&#039;m curious about how Nibley&#039;s ideas have changed how you run your business?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Post #6</p>
<p>Thomas,</p>
<p> As a fellow biz owner, I&#8217;m curious about how Nibley&#8217;s ideas have changed how you run your business?</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101374</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Nelson-Seawright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 14:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101374</guid>
		<description>Jacob, thanks for your thoughts.  Truly fascinating remarks; I&#039;m really glad you visited the post.

On one point, I should clarify.  You say, &quot;This matter of &#039;dissident&#039; must be properly defined and understood.&quot;  Indeed.  I certainly don&#039;t mean the word as any kind of pejorative.  Instead I&#039;m using it here to point out that Hugh Nibley violates current Mormon stereotypes about those who criticize the highest leaders of the church.  In fact, many dissidents violate those stereotypes, and criticism has never been the same as evil-speaking.  One can be a dissident in the sense of expressing serious dissent with a policy -- or even the overall direction of church leadership, as in the leaders vs. managers speech! -- without being disaffected; Nibley reminds us of that, but it&#039;s a lesson we should apply to others, as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob, thanks for your thoughts.  Truly fascinating remarks; I&#8217;m really glad you visited the post.</p>
<p>On one point, I should clarify.  You say, &#8220;This matter of &#8216;dissident&#8217; must be properly defined and understood.&#8221;  Indeed.  I certainly don&#8217;t mean the word as any kind of pejorative.  Instead I&#8217;m using it here to point out that Hugh Nibley violates current Mormon stereotypes about those who criticize the highest leaders of the church.  In fact, many dissidents violate those stereotypes, and criticism has never been the same as evil-speaking.  One can be a dissident in the sense of expressing serious dissent with a policy &#8212; or even the overall direction of church leadership, as in the leaders vs. managers speech! &#8212; without being disaffected; Nibley reminds us of that, but it&#8217;s a lesson we should apply to others, as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101373</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 06:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101373</guid>
		<description>What an interesting post this is.  This is my first visit to this website, a friend sent me the link.

Brother Hugh is one of my dearest friends.  His last words to me a very short time prior to his passing in his front room upon his sick bed were to the effect &quot;Remember, we will still be friends&quot;.  I don&#039;t quite know how to articulate the overwhelming feelings that come to mind and heart as I read and ponder the comments posted.  I feel that the subjects at hand cover such a vast array of our faith that it may not be possible to satisfy the desire to expound and reason them out fully or in any significant degree here on this board.  I am certain that Brother Hugh is interested in this post and from where he is is fully aware of its contents.

Here are some of my thoughts, please bear with me as I tend to get going and do not do too well with grammar, the spirit flows quicker than my ability to organize it according to the preference of the nobles and when I go back to rewrite much of that inspiration is tainted:  Hugh Nibley&#039;s prime directive was and is Truth.  The heart of all his efforts were fundamentally directed to that end.  The comment regarding the Church not mentioning his passing in conference is nullified by the fact that at his funeral were Elder Jeffery Holland and Dallin Oaks along with several other general authorities including Merrill Bateman.  They were not there because they had to be and their talks expressing a great veneration for his works were plainly evident.  Upon the subject that eludes to Brother Hugh being disaffected in any degree regarding the Church is absolute conjecture.  This matter of &quot;dissident&quot; must be properly defined and understood.  In my opinion the Truth is never a form of dissent but really a matter of milk and meat.  I recommend we all read â€œAdventures of a Church Historianâ€ by Leonard Arrington, in it the battle of Management VS. Inspiration proves to be the main theme.  No one that I intimately know including a great many of our dear brethren leading the Church were so committed to the spirit of the Truth.  The power of his words only resonate Truth with Truth, intelligence cleaving unto intelligence.  I am not advocating that he is great in and of himself, he would be the first to admit himself &quot;less than the dust of the earth&quot;.  He loved to be proven wrong about something because that to him meant that he could at last be corrected for the sake of truth. (Being liberated from a lie, &quot;The truth shall set you free&quot;) Brigham Young said that we ought to love the truth because there is no error in it - this is the heart of Brother Hughâ€™s mission.  It is a prophetic mission I firmly believe.  He told it how it is and did not reserve!  Hughâ€™s famous comments regarding â€œGraduating in the robes of Satanâ€™s priesthoodâ€ was not a joke.  As I see it, Man has not power to intellectualize the gospel but only prove himself (individually) that he is worthy to progress into higher and higher realms of understanding or light and truth â€“ until the perfect day as we learn in the D&amp;C.  Our agency is the only real asset we posses and as Hugh said the best we can do with it here in our mortal probation (even to the envy of Angels) is to â€œForgive and Repent.â€

About Hugh being disaffected with the church leaders:  The Brethren have their stewardship and stand accountable to it just as you stand accountable for your stewardships.  Hugh recognized that and devoted himself to the mission that Heavenly Father ordained him to perform.  He called a spade a spade.  Elder Packard once told us that the Church leadership wags the tail of the dog but the Church membership wags the Dog.

As I see it, each of us must come to the place where we are in harmony with the eternal unchangeable principle that Truth is the ultimate end and that never the means to obtain it is justified by such else freedom and progression are ever stalled.  Satan has not intelligence but superior knowledge in effect he chose not to graduate the 3rd grade where we using our agency can cleave unto intelligence or the Glory of God and progress as long as we so desire.  Why do you think humility is the only grounds upon which we have right to qualify for true advancement?  There are two intelligences, the one greater than the other and I God am more intelligent than them all&quot;.  Without a higher intelligence we cannot be corrected  (changed) and taught or added upon. The more you learn is ever the more you come to realize that you don&#039;t know and how insignificant you ever stand before God.  Grace for Grace, Line upon Line - even God himself followed this pattern and his Father and His ever into the eternities of the past of no beginning.  We must ever realize that the concepts of Freedom and Security are opposed at their very root!  Our only hope to truly become great and one with God is to enter into his holy way which is and always has been and ever will be reverence, humility and obedience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What an interesting post this is.  This is my first visit to this website, a friend sent me the link.</p>
<p>Brother Hugh is one of my dearest friends.  His last words to me a very short time prior to his passing in his front room upon his sick bed were to the effect &#8220;Remember, we will still be friends&#8221;.  I don&#8217;t quite know how to articulate the overwhelming feelings that come to mind and heart as I read and ponder the comments posted.  I feel that the subjects at hand cover such a vast array of our faith that it may not be possible to satisfy the desire to expound and reason them out fully or in any significant degree here on this board.  I am certain that Brother Hugh is interested in this post and from where he is is fully aware of its contents.</p>
<p>Here are some of my thoughts, please bear with me as I tend to get going and do not do too well with grammar, the spirit flows quicker than my ability to organize it according to the preference of the nobles and when I go back to rewrite much of that inspiration is tainted:  Hugh Nibley&#8217;s prime directive was and is Truth.  The heart of all his efforts were fundamentally directed to that end.  The comment regarding the Church not mentioning his passing in conference is nullified by the fact that at his funeral were Elder Jeffery Holland and Dallin Oaks along with several other general authorities including Merrill Bateman.  They were not there because they had to be and their talks expressing a great veneration for his works were plainly evident.  Upon the subject that eludes to Brother Hugh being disaffected in any degree regarding the Church is absolute conjecture.  This matter of &#8220;dissident&#8221; must be properly defined and understood.  In my opinion the Truth is never a form of dissent but really a matter of milk and meat.  I recommend we all read â€œAdventures of a Church Historianâ€ by Leonard Arrington, in it the battle of Management VS. Inspiration proves to be the main theme.  No one that I intimately know including a great many of our dear brethren leading the Church were so committed to the spirit of the Truth.  The power of his words only resonate Truth with Truth, intelligence cleaving unto intelligence.  I am not advocating that he is great in and of himself, he would be the first to admit himself &#8220;less than the dust of the earth&#8221;.  He loved to be proven wrong about something because that to him meant that he could at last be corrected for the sake of truth. (Being liberated from a lie, &#8220;The truth shall set you free&#8221;) Brigham Young said that we ought to love the truth because there is no error in it &#8211; this is the heart of Brother Hughâ€™s mission.  It is a prophetic mission I firmly believe.  He told it how it is and did not reserve!  Hughâ€™s famous comments regarding â€œGraduating in the robes of Satanâ€™s priesthoodâ€ was not a joke.  As I see it, Man has not power to intellectualize the gospel but only prove himself (individually) that he is worthy to progress into higher and higher realms of understanding or light and truth â€“ until the perfect day as we learn in the D&amp;C.  Our agency is the only real asset we posses and as Hugh said the best we can do with it here in our mortal probation (even to the envy of Angels) is to â€œForgive and Repent.â€</p>
<p>About Hugh being disaffected with the church leaders:  The Brethren have their stewardship and stand accountable to it just as you stand accountable for your stewardships.  Hugh recognized that and devoted himself to the mission that Heavenly Father ordained him to perform.  He called a spade a spade.  Elder Packard once told us that the Church leadership wags the tail of the dog but the Church membership wags the Dog.</p>
<p>As I see it, each of us must come to the place where we are in harmony with the eternal unchangeable principle that Truth is the ultimate end and that never the means to obtain it is justified by such else freedom and progression are ever stalled.  Satan has not intelligence but superior knowledge in effect he chose not to graduate the 3rd grade where we using our agency can cleave unto intelligence or the Glory of God and progress as long as we so desire.  Why do you think humility is the only grounds upon which we have right to qualify for true advancement?  There are two intelligences, the one greater than the other and I God am more intelligent than them all&#8221;.  Without a higher intelligence we cannot be corrected  (changed) and taught or added upon. The more you learn is ever the more you come to realize that you don&#8217;t know and how insignificant you ever stand before God.  Grace for Grace, Line upon Line &#8211; even God himself followed this pattern and his Father and His ever into the eternities of the past of no beginning.  We must ever realize that the concepts of Freedom and Security are opposed at their very root!  Our only hope to truly become great and one with God is to enter into his holy way which is and always has been and ever will be reverence, humility and obedience.</p>
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		<title>By: JWL</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101372</link>
		<dc:creator>JWL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 06:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101372</guid>
		<description>Re: #34 -- Over its entire history Dialogue did publish a lot of positive scholarship, including Nibley.  However, there was a period not long after Nibley gave the speeches referred to in your post where Dialogue took a decidely negative turn (more recently shifted back to a broader perspective).  My point is that had the Dialoue editors in that time period followed Nibley&#039;s example of criticizing from a stance of faith, many negative consequences might have been avoided.

Re: #35 -- Probably the best example I can think of how one can successfully criticize and change traditional Church views if one comes from a proven stance of faith is the increasing broad acceptance of the FARMS promoted limited geography model of the BoM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: #34 &#8212; Over its entire history Dialogue did publish a lot of positive scholarship, including Nibley.  However, there was a period not long after Nibley gave the speeches referred to in your post where Dialogue took a decidely negative turn (more recently shifted back to a broader perspective).  My point is that had the Dialoue editors in that time period followed Nibley&#8217;s example of criticizing from a stance of faith, many negative consequences might have been avoided.</p>
<p>Re: #35 &#8212; Probably the best example I can think of how one can successfully criticize and change traditional Church views if one comes from a proven stance of faith is the increasing broad acceptance of the FARMS promoted limited geography model of the BoM.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101371</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 03:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101371</guid>
		<description>I think the difference though is that Nibley had a reputation for defending the church, wheras Dialog as a whole doesn&#039;t.  So this enables Nibley to criticize in a fashion others might not.  A modern example would be Dan Peterson making some criticisms of some policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the difference though is that Nibley had a reputation for defending the church, wheras Dialog as a whole doesn&#8217;t.  So this enables Nibley to criticize in a fashion others might not.  A modern example would be Dan Peterson making some criticisms of some policy.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101370</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Nelson-Seawright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 23:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101370</guid>
		<description>JWL, &lt;em&gt;Dialogue&lt;/em&gt; has in fact published a great deal of positive scholarship.  To some extent, the journal is constrained by the perception among many BYU faculty members that they are not allowed to publish there -- but even so, a substantial portion of the journal&#039;s contents have been and continue to be faith-building.  Your perception of a lack of balance is probably common, but I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s really an accurate assessment of the reality of the independent Mormon journals.

To stick to the theme of this post, it might be noteworthy that Hugh Nibley himself published more than once in &lt;em&gt;Dialogue&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JWL, <em>Dialogue</em> has in fact published a great deal of positive scholarship.  To some extent, the journal is constrained by the perception among many BYU faculty members that they are not allowed to publish there &#8212; but even so, a substantial portion of the journal&#8217;s contents have been and continue to be faith-building.  Your perception of a lack of balance is probably common, but I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s really an accurate assessment of the reality of the independent Mormon journals.</p>
<p>To stick to the theme of this post, it might be noteworthy that Hugh Nibley himself published more than once in <em>Dialogue</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: JWL</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101369</link>
		<dc:creator>JWL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 23:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101369</guid>
		<description>Being somewhat familiar with the context in which the speeches JNS refers to were given, I would have to agree that they were clearly criticisms of policies entacted at the highest levels of Church government.  And Nibley was certainly not the only the only person then (or now) to complain about a lot of these points.  What strikes me most, however, is to compare the relative output of Nibley and the other critics.  Nibley&#039;s criticisms were both effective in influencing many and unchallenged by the hierarchy because they came in the context of a substantial body of work defending and promoting the restored gospel and church.  I have often wondered that if the independent publications of the day (especially Dialogue) had bothered to try to show more balance by publishing some (or any) scholarship that was positive that their negative criticism might not have provoked the reaction from the hierarchy that leaves intellectual discourse among Mormons so constrained and ineffective today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being somewhat familiar with the context in which the speeches JNS refers to were given, I would have to agree that they were clearly criticisms of policies entacted at the highest levels of Church government.  And Nibley was certainly not the only the only person then (or now) to complain about a lot of these points.  What strikes me most, however, is to compare the relative output of Nibley and the other critics.  Nibley&#8217;s criticisms were both effective in influencing many and unchallenged by the hierarchy because they came in the context of a substantial body of work defending and promoting the restored gospel and church.  I have often wondered that if the independent publications of the day (especially Dialogue) had bothered to try to show more balance by publishing some (or any) scholarship that was positive that their negative criticism might not have provoked the reaction from the hierarchy that leaves intellectual discourse among Mormons so constrained and ineffective today.</p>
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		<title>By: MCQ</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/06/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101368</link>
		<dc:creator>MCQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 17:24:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/04/hugh-nibley-mormon-dissident/#comment-101368</guid>
		<description>Hey Stein!  Nice to see you here.  Newbs unite!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Stein!  Nice to see you here.  Newbs unite!</p>
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