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	<title>Comments on: The curse of Lucy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54677</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jun 2007 05:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54677</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The only reason I can see that other naturalists miss this concept is they are mostly male?&quot; Well...add me to your list. &quot;If you think about it logically, though, itâ€™s completely obvious&quot;. Take it Ronan, you started it. Good Night.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The only reason I can see that other naturalists miss this concept is they are mostly male?&#8221; Well&#8230;add me to your list. &#8220;If you think about it logically, though, itâ€™s completely obvious&#8221;. Take it Ronan, you started it. Good Night.</p>
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		<title>By: Tatiana</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54676</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tatiana]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jun 2007 02:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54676</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay, weird that this has devolved into that sort of discussion.  I want to take it back to the science, if I may.  There&#039;s a really interesting realization about sexual selection that I&#039;ve never read of naturalists making, though it&#039;s completely obvious once you think of it.  Sexual selection is always described as female choice drives male traits which are counter-survival and yet they are pro-reproduction because females like them.  If you look at the situation logically, that&#039;s putting the cart before the horse.

Female preferences are themselves traits that are selected for.  That&#039;s the horse that comes before the cart.  If the females of the species decide they like male traits that are unfit, then those females will have fewer or less-successful offspring and the traits (male unfit trait plus female preference trait) will not tend to propogate.  So how do we solve the conundrum of the peacock tail, huge antler racks, stotting, etc.?  How can we explain the fact that some male sexual traits exist which LESSEN the chance of the male&#039;s surviving?  Isn&#039;t it true that a large and ungainly tail makes a peacock easier for predators to spot, and makes it harder for the peacock to get away, and yet it&#039;s still attractive to females?  Such traits aren&#039;t advertising the possibility of fit offspring overall.  After all, the male offspring will share their father&#039;s handicap.  What such traits advertise is the possibility of fit DAUGHTERS.  Because this male is so strong, healthy, and fit that he can survive even with this metabolically expensive and ungainly tail, it means his daughters are going to be extremely fit, for they will inherit his overall strength, endurance, and health without the handicap.

What this has to mean is that fit daughters are more important to gene propagation in the long run than fit sons.  Otherwise, the female preference for mates with large beautiful tails would die out.

Nobody but I that I&#039;ve ever read seems to understand this fact.  If you think about it logically, though, it&#039;s completely obvious.  Female preference doesn&#039;t just arise from nowhere.  It&#039;s a heritable trait the same as any other, and so natural selection of course must work upon it.

The only reason I can see that other naturalists miss this concept is they are mostly male?  Does that make any sense?  It doesn&#039;t seem to.  But otherwise I can&#039;t explain it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, weird that this has devolved into that sort of discussion.  I want to take it back to the science, if I may.  There&#8217;s a really interesting realization about sexual selection that I&#8217;ve never read of naturalists making, though it&#8217;s completely obvious once you think of it.  Sexual selection is always described as female choice drives male traits which are counter-survival and yet they are pro-reproduction because females like them.  If you look at the situation logically, that&#8217;s putting the cart before the horse.</p>
<p>Female preferences are themselves traits that are selected for.  That&#8217;s the horse that comes before the cart.  If the females of the species decide they like male traits that are unfit, then those females will have fewer or less-successful offspring and the traits (male unfit trait plus female preference trait) will not tend to propogate.  So how do we solve the conundrum of the peacock tail, huge antler racks, stotting, etc.?  How can we explain the fact that some male sexual traits exist which LESSEN the chance of the male&#8217;s surviving?  Isn&#8217;t it true that a large and ungainly tail makes a peacock easier for predators to spot, and makes it harder for the peacock to get away, and yet it&#8217;s still attractive to females?  Such traits aren&#8217;t advertising the possibility of fit offspring overall.  After all, the male offspring will share their father&#8217;s handicap.  What such traits advertise is the possibility of fit DAUGHTERS.  Because this male is so strong, healthy, and fit that he can survive even with this metabolically expensive and ungainly tail, it means his daughters are going to be extremely fit, for they will inherit his overall strength, endurance, and health without the handicap.</p>
<p>What this has to mean is that fit daughters are more important to gene propagation in the long run than fit sons.  Otherwise, the female preference for mates with large beautiful tails would die out.</p>
<p>Nobody but I that I&#8217;ve ever read seems to understand this fact.  If you think about it logically, though, it&#8217;s completely obvious.  Female preference doesn&#8217;t just arise from nowhere.  It&#8217;s a heritable trait the same as any other, and so natural selection of course must work upon it.</p>
<p>The only reason I can see that other naturalists miss this concept is they are mostly male?  Does that make any sense?  It doesn&#8217;t seem to.  But otherwise I can&#8217;t explain it.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54675</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54675</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#13 &quot;sexual selection&quot; in higher animals? Sorry, mostly rape by the strong. In Primitive Man with Culture, mostly Group Sex, not &quot;mating&quot;. Dads did not bond with kids or females. Mother&#039;s Brother the more likely Male figure.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#13 &#8220;sexual selection&#8221; in higher animals? Sorry, mostly rape by the strong. In Primitive Man with Culture, mostly Group Sex, not &#8220;mating&#8221;. Dads did not bond with kids or females. Mother&#8217;s Brother the more likely Male figure.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54674</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#19 It&#039;s like trying to leap a canyon in two leaps.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#19 It&#8217;s like trying to leap a canyon in two leaps.</p>
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		<title>By: jjohnsen</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54673</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jjohnsen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting post, thanks Ronan.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post, thanks Ronan.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54672</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I forgot, Sam, that you don&#039;t like funerals-as-political statement. Romantic!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot, Sam, that you don&#8217;t like funerals-as-political statement. Romantic!</p>
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		<title>By: Sam MB</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54671</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam MB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54671</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#19, Ronan, it&#039;s because it sounds like a Kipling Just-So story dressed up with a wee dollup of probability theory (conveniently flooded into irrelevance by several 10^6&#039;s) and physical determinism.  It sounds like a fun story to attempt to describe something we understand very little, and it serves as an indicator of devotion to a view of human experience that lacks drama, power, or spirit (this is the human side speaking).  It&#039;s like something out of Crick&#039;s great paradox book, which was unreadable.

So the answer is that it&#039;s just not rigorous enough, and it thus remains mythic, so if that&#039;s the case, you&#039;re allowed to ask what the myth attempts to establish, and that is that a core aspect of being human derives solely from the biomechanics of bones.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#19, Ronan, it&#8217;s because it sounds like a Kipling Just-So story dressed up with a wee dollup of probability theory (conveniently flooded into irrelevance by several 10^6&#8242;s) and physical determinism.  It sounds like a fun story to attempt to describe something we understand very little, and it serves as an indicator of devotion to a view of human experience that lacks drama, power, or spirit (this is the human side speaking).  It&#8217;s like something out of Crick&#8217;s great paradox book, which was unreadable.</p>
<p>So the answer is that it&#8217;s just not rigorous enough, and it thus remains mythic, so if that&#8217;s the case, you&#8217;re allowed to ask what the myth attempts to establish, and that is that a core aspect of being human derives solely from the biomechanics of bones.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Parkin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54670</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas Parkin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54670</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ronan,

It isn&#039;t crazy - it&#039;s irrelvent. *wink*

Anyway  - I can&#039;t beleive I&#039;m up at 5:30 am posting on BCC. I&#039;ve got a bad history with online discussion - I&#039;ve just been reading some of that history. Wish I&#039;d known about x-no-archive. I get really vicious,- but I haven&#039;t been that person in a long while, and I didn&#039;t mean to start now.

~]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ronan,</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t crazy &#8211; it&#8217;s irrelvent. *wink*</p>
<p>Anyway  &#8211; I can&#8217;t beleive I&#8217;m up at 5:30 am posting on BCC. I&#8217;ve got a bad history with online discussion &#8211; I&#8217;ve just been reading some of that history. Wish I&#8217;d known about x-no-archive. I get really vicious,- but I haven&#8217;t been that person in a long while, and I didn&#8217;t mean to start now.</p>
<p>~</p>
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		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54669</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54669</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;Most of the people Iâ€™ve known who really take to it, at least at the pop science level where it is encountered, are pretty miserable, often rather nihilistic little creatures.&lt;/em&gt;

I&#039;ll take that as a compliment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Most of the people Iâ€™ve known who really take to it, at least at the pop science level where it is encountered, are pretty miserable, often rather nihilistic little creatures.</em></p>
<p>I&#8217;ll take that as a compliment.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/10/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54668</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 11:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/the-curse-of-lucy/#comment-54668</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thomas et. al.

I am truly at a loss to understand why the obvious reality of small-brained human babies requiring male-female bonding to ensure their survival is the crazy idea you are suggesting it to be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas et. al.</p>
<p>I am truly at a loss to understand why the obvious reality of small-brained human babies requiring male-female bonding to ensure their survival is the crazy idea you are suggesting it to be.</p>
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