Comments on: Elder Joanna? http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/ A Mormon Blog Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:27:40 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Ancient Justification for Modern Practice « Faith Promoting Rumor http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/#comment-20893 Ancient Justification for Modern Practice « Faith Promoting Rumor Wed, 20 Jun 2007 01:55:51 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/elder-joanna/#comment-20893 [...] by jupiterschild on June 19th, 2007 Kevin Barney’s post over at BCC has me thinking about the ramifications of female Apostleship (capital A): What it [...] [...] by jupiterschild on June 19th, 2007 Kevin Barney’s post over at BCC has me thinking about the ramifications of female Apostleship (capital A): What it [...]

]]> By: Todd Wood http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/#comment-20892 Todd Wood Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:06:06 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/elder-joanna/#comment-20892 Kevin and Julie, thanks for the tips. I will explore this further. It seems I need to read Bauckman. Is it Bauckham or Bauckman? Julie, email me sometime (elonwood@juno.com) on explaining your adversion to the phrase, "heart issues". And I will explain to you a Hebraic take on "heart" and also my adversion to the emphasis on external religion. Kevin and Julie, thanks for the tips. I will explore this further. It seems I need to read Bauckman. Is it Bauckham or Bauckman?

Julie, email me sometime (elonwood@juno.com) on explaining your adversion to the phrase, “heart issues”. And I will explain to you a Hebraic take on “heart” and also my adversion to the emphasis on external religion.

]]> By: Justin http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/#comment-20891 Justin Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:45:12 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/elder-joanna/#comment-20891 The chiastic structure is a bit tighter in Bauckham's book. Following L. Dussaut, he presents an ABCDC'B'A' structure (he combines your A and B lines and your A' and B' lines). The chiastic structure is a bit tighter in Bauckham’s book. Following L. Dussaut, he presents an ABCDC’B'A’ structure (he combines your A and B lines and your A’ and B’ lines).

]]> By: Blake http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/#comment-20890 Blake Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:31:41 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/elder-joanna/#comment-20890 Kevin: It is demonstrable that Jews of all stripes travelled long distances with women in their company (though sometimes they travelled well behind their male counterparts). Moroever, it seems to me that an apostolos is merely one sent to give a message, as you note, rather like a missionary. I cannot see any basis for concluding that Joanna, male or female, was anything other than a believer who taught about Jesus. Kevin: It is demonstrable that Jews of all stripes travelled long distances with women in their company (though sometimes they travelled well behind their male counterparts). Moroever, it seems to me that an apostolos is merely one sent to give a message, as you note, rather like a missionary. I cannot see any basis for concluding that Joanna, male or female, was anything other than a believer who taught about Jesus.

]]> By: Kevin Barney http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/#comment-20889 Kevin Barney Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:16:11 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/elder-joanna/#comment-20889 velikye, the witness of Joanna to Jesus in mortality and the empty tomb is certainly a very important part of it. Apparently, Bauckman sees Joanna as the center of a chiasm at Luke 24:10, indicative of her perceived importance to the narrative. I haven't seen Bauckman so I don't know what his scheme is, but I can indeed see a chiastic structure there: A his words B to the eleven C all the rest D Mary Magdalene E Joanna D' Mary mother of James C' other women B' to the apostles A' these words velikye, the witness of Joanna to Jesus in mortality and the empty tomb is certainly a very important part of it.

Apparently, Bauckman sees Joanna as the center of a chiasm at Luke 24:10, indicative of her perceived importance to the narrative. I haven’t seen Bauckman so I don’t know what his scheme is, but I can indeed see a chiastic structure there:

A his words

B to the eleven

C all the rest

D Mary Magdalene

E Joanna

D’ Mary mother of James

C’ other women

B’ to the apostles

A’ these words

]]> By: Kevin Barney http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/#comment-20888 Kevin Barney Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:08:13 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/elder-joanna/#comment-20888 <a href="http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/corpus-paul/20030529/004358.html" rel="nofollow">Here </a>is a brief summary of Bauckman's argument from the Corpus Paulinum list. The position of Bauckman and Witherington is mentioned in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Joanna" rel="nofollow">this Wikipedia article </a>without further elaboration. Witherington has a blog, which you can find <a href="http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2006/08/brain-food.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Otherwise, your best bet is to follow Julie's suggestion. If you want to read the actual Witherington article, you'll have to contact the Biblical Archaeology Society to either purchase a back issue or to purchase electronic rights. Here is a brief summary of Bauckman’s argument from the Corpus Paulinum list.

The position of Bauckman and Witherington is mentioned in this Wikipedia article without further elaboration.

Witherington has a blog, which you can find here.

Otherwise, your best bet is to follow Julie’s suggestion. If you want to read the actual Witherington article, you’ll have to contact the Biblical Archaeology Society to either purchase a back issue or to purchase electronic rights.

]]> By: Lynnette http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/#comment-20887 Lynnette Mon, 18 Jun 2007 04:54:09 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/elder-joanna/#comment-20887 Fascinating post--thanks for sharing! Fascinating post–thanks for sharing!

]]> By: velikye kniaz http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/#comment-20886 velikye kniaz Mon, 18 Jun 2007 04:06:06 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/elder-joanna/#comment-20886 Could it be that the term 'apostle' became an honorific term given by early Saints to those faithful disciples who actually were first (prima facae) witnesses to His ministry? It would stand to reason that any disciple who was granted the privilege of seeing, and perhaps touching and conversing with the risen Saviour during his forty day ministry would be held in especial awe by the early Saints and most particularly by the recent converts of that era. If this same disciple had contact with the Saviour during His earthly ministry and heard His teachings in His own voice that would only further emphasize their stature as a 'special witness' of the Saviour. Just a possible explanation. Could it be that the term ‘apostle’ became an honorific term given by early Saints to those faithful disciples who actually were first (prima facae) witnesses to His ministry? It would stand to reason that any disciple who was granted the privilege of seeing, and perhaps touching and conversing with the risen Saviour during his forty day ministry would be held in especial awe by the early Saints and most particularly by the recent converts of that era. If this same disciple had contact with the Saviour during His earthly ministry and heard His teachings in His own voice that would only further emphasize their stature as a ’special witness’ of the Saviour. Just a possible explanation.

]]> By: Julie M. Smith http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/#comment-20885 Julie M. Smith Mon, 18 Jun 2007 04:02:01 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/elder-joanna/#comment-20885 Todd, I'd recommend that you go to Bauckman's book, since it was his idea in the first place. I'd also suggest that you find a new hobby besides "heart issues for LDS," but maybe that's just because the phrase "heart issues" makes my skin crawl. Todd, I’d recommend that you go to Bauckman’s book, since it was his idea in the first place.

I’d also suggest that you find a new hobby besides “heart issues for LDS,” but maybe that’s just because the phrase “heart issues” makes my skin crawl.

]]> By: Todd Wood http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/16/elder-joanna/#comment-20884 Todd Wood Mon, 18 Jun 2007 02:53:18 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/elder-joanna/#comment-20884 Kevin & Julie, would there be any other links by Witherington where I could read him defending Junia with a capital A? I wouldn't be surprised, especially with how highly he values the writings of some others, like for instance, <a href="http://heartissuesforlds.wordpress.com/2007/04/30/scholar-amy-jill-levine-on-persecuted-lds/" rel="nofollow">Amy-Jill Levine</a>. Though I don't see Junia with a capital A, I definitely had to share Chrysostom's quote with my church family when we explored Romans 16. Romans 16 is a fabulous chapter for the acknowledgment of women in their ministry for the Lord. In fact, Romans 16 shatters a lot of traditional American ways of doing church. I am highly thankful for this powerful closing chapter by Paul in the epistle. Kevin & Julie, would there be any other links by Witherington where I could read him defending Junia with a capital A?

I wouldn’t be surprised, especially with how highly he values the writings of some others, like for instance, Amy-Jill Levine.

Though I don’t see Junia with a capital A, I definitely had to share Chrysostom’s quote with my church family when we explored Romans 16.

Romans 16 is a fabulous chapter for the acknowledgment of women in their ministry for the Lord. In fact, Romans 16 shatters a lot of traditional American ways of doing church. I am highly thankful for this powerful closing chapter by Paul in the epistle.

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