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	<title>Comments on: Thinking the Temple</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Baurak Ale</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101716</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Baurak Ale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101716</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I liked the article. However I must disagree about this idea that the temple is some kind of timeless vortex, and once you step over the threshold you enter some kind of Twilight Zone where time does not exist.

I remember my first time as a new patron my escort told me as I glanced at my watch waiting to recieve my initiatories, that time does not exist  in here and not to worry about the time. I since pondered that and have come to the conclusion my escort was wrong. I do not know where this idea originated from as far as I know it has no doctrinal or authoritive bases whatsoever it is merely another well circulated mormon myth.

If like General Zod&#039;s comments on Supermans celestial home the Fortress of Solitude, that it is a merely a poor sentimental replica of a forgotten world and that it has no style at all. I view the temple much like General Zod, merely a poor sentimental attempt at replicating, in microcosm at least a long since forgotten celestial planet. Which isn&#039;t entirely accurate either.

And according to the Hermetic Maxim &#039;that as above so below&#039;. And if I follow Plato theory of forms which would indicated to me that all things in this world are merely a  fading shadow of their counterparts in a celestial world, and that everything on this earth has a parallel of things in heaven. Then as there is  time on earth so there would be time in heaven, and if the temple is a replica in a small way of heaven then time exists there. And according to the Book of Abraham in reference to kolob we are told there is time in heaven. Timelessness I would say not but I would suggest time slows down in the temple. After all temples are fitted with digital clocks with sessions times in various rooms.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked the article. However I must disagree about this idea that the temple is some kind of timeless vortex, and once you step over the threshold you enter some kind of Twilight Zone where time does not exist.</p>
<p>I remember my first time as a new patron my escort told me as I glanced at my watch waiting to recieve my initiatories, that time does not exist  in here and not to worry about the time. I since pondered that and have come to the conclusion my escort was wrong. I do not know where this idea originated from as far as I know it has no doctrinal or authoritive bases whatsoever it is merely another well circulated mormon myth.</p>
<p>If like General Zod&#8217;s comments on Supermans celestial home the Fortress of Solitude, that it is a merely a poor sentimental replica of a forgotten world and that it has no style at all. I view the temple much like General Zod, merely a poor sentimental attempt at replicating, in microcosm at least a long since forgotten celestial planet. Which isn&#8217;t entirely accurate either.</p>
<p>And according to the Hermetic Maxim &#8216;that as above so below&#8217;. And if I follow Plato theory of forms which would indicated to me that all things in this world are merely a  fading shadow of their counterparts in a celestial world, and that everything on this earth has a parallel of things in heaven. Then as there is  time on earth so there would be time in heaven, and if the temple is a replica in a small way of heaven then time exists there. And according to the Book of Abraham in reference to kolob we are told there is time in heaven. Timelessness I would say not but I would suggest time slows down in the temple. After all temples are fitted with digital clocks with sessions times in various rooms.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101715</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101715</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My wife takes better notes than I.  What Bro. Bushman said included an important phrase that I didn&#039;t include.  Here is the fuller version:

In the morning a farmer can be knee deep in mud and muck and manure, &lt;strong&gt;participating in the creation in a very real, physical way&lt;/strong&gt;; later that afternoon that same farmer can be experiencing creation through the eyes of God.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My wife takes better notes than I.  What Bro. Bushman said included an important phrase that I didn&#8217;t include.  Here is the fuller version:</p>
<p>In the morning a farmer can be knee deep in mud and muck and manure, <strong>participating in the creation in a very real, physical way</strong>; later that afternoon that same farmer can be experiencing creation through the eyes of God.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101714</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101714</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I also heard Bushman speak recently, and he said something that really resonated with everyone in attendance.  He said about Joseph Smith, paraphrasing:

One of his greatest contributions was how he was able to combine the mundane and the divine.  Think about it.  In the morning a farmer can be knee deep in mud and muck and manure; later that afternoon that same farmer can be experiencing creation through the eyes of God.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also heard Bushman speak recently, and he said something that really resonated with everyone in attendance.  He said about Joseph Smith, paraphrasing:</p>
<p>One of his greatest contributions was how he was able to combine the mundane and the divine.  Think about it.  In the morning a farmer can be knee deep in mud and muck and manure; later that afternoon that same farmer can be experiencing creation through the eyes of God.</p>
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		<title>By: kevinf</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101713</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kevinf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I recall going to hear Richard Bushman last fall or winter here in Seattle, and hearing him talk about temples as one of Joseph Smith&#039;s unique contributions to American religiousculture, that of a &quot;sacred space&quot;.

I don&#039;t know if the Masons consider their temples &quot;sacred space&quot; or just secret, but while there are many places we consider &quot;holy&quot; or &quot;hallowed&quot; (ie, Arlington Cemetery, many other churches cathedrals and sanctuaries) Mormonism&#039;s temples are unique in this aspect, Bushman stated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recall going to hear Richard Bushman last fall or winter here in Seattle, and hearing him talk about temples as one of Joseph Smith&#8217;s unique contributions to American religiousculture, that of a &#8220;sacred space&#8221;.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if the Masons consider their temples &#8220;sacred space&#8221; or just secret, but while there are many places we consider &#8220;holy&#8221; or &#8220;hallowed&#8221; (ie, Arlington Cemetery, many other churches cathedrals and sanctuaries) Mormonism&#8217;s temples are unique in this aspect, Bushman stated.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Nelson-Seawright</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101712</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Nelson-Seawright]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Justin, a good reference -- thanks.

Annegb, there are various Masonic rituals, of course.  I don&#039;t know what the Rainbow Girl rituals are.  However, I do know that the version of Masonry discussed in detail in William Morgan&#039;s book has intricate and detailed connections with Mormon temple practice.  People who have looked at both typically describe the links as undeniable.  In a spiritual sense, I agree that the connection may be over-emphasized.  As a matter of intellectual history, this connection seems to be perhaps the clearest parallel in all of Mormon studies -- and one of the few parallels with exact, well-documented paths by which the information has traveled and with early, direct acknowledgment by faithful participants.  Here&#039;s a quote from a June 17, 1842 letter by Heber C. Kimball to Parley Pratt (perhaps the most famous single quote on Mormonism and Masonry):

&lt;blockquote&gt;We have received some pressious things through the Prophet on the preasthood that would cause your Soul to rejoice. I can not give them to you on paper fore they are not to be riten. So you must come and get them for your Self. We have organized a Lodge here of Masons since we obtained a Charter. That was in March. Since that thare was near two hundred been made masons. Br. Joseph and Sidny [Ridgon] was the first that was Received into the Lodg. All of the twelve apostles have become members Except Orson Pratt. He hangs back. He will wake up soon, thare is a similarity of preas Hood in Masonry. Bro. Joseph Ses Masonry was taken from preasthood but has become degenerated. But menny things are perfect.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin, a good reference &#8212; thanks.</p>
<p>Annegb, there are various Masonic rituals, of course.  I don&#8217;t know what the Rainbow Girl rituals are.  However, I do know that the version of Masonry discussed in detail in William Morgan&#8217;s book has intricate and detailed connections with Mormon temple practice.  People who have looked at both typically describe the links as undeniable.  In a spiritual sense, I agree that the connection may be over-emphasized.  As a matter of intellectual history, this connection seems to be perhaps the clearest parallel in all of Mormon studies &#8212; and one of the few parallels with exact, well-documented paths by which the information has traveled and with early, direct acknowledgment by faithful participants.  Here&#8217;s a quote from a June 17, 1842 letter by Heber C. Kimball to Parley Pratt (perhaps the most famous single quote on Mormonism and Masonry):</p>
<blockquote><p>We have received some pressious things through the Prophet on the preasthood that would cause your Soul to rejoice. I can not give them to you on paper fore they are not to be riten. So you must come and get them for your Self. We have organized a Lodge here of Masons since we obtained a Charter. That was in March. Since that thare was near two hundred been made masons. Br. Joseph and Sidny [Ridgon] was the first that was Received into the Lodg. All of the twelve apostles have become members Except Orson Pratt. He hangs back. He will wake up soon, thare is a similarity of preas Hood in Masonry. Bro. Joseph Ses Masonry was taken from preasthood but has become degenerated. But menny things are perfect.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101711</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great point, John Tabor.  The same friend I mentioned in #4 also said: &quot;I have never felt as connected to God and the universe as I did in the temple.&quot;

I know I feel a literally physical difference when I step onto the temple grounds - a change in atmosphere, if you will.  It&#039;s as if I truly have left &quot;the world&quot; and entered a parallel dimension.  That feeling intensifies when I actually step into the temple and the doors close behind me.

(In that light, it&#039;s interesting to me how the presentation begins - where it places us, both in physical space and in narrative view - seeing the creation from outside our own worldly limits.  I absolutely LOVE that aspect.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great point, John Tabor.  The same friend I mentioned in #4 also said: &#8220;I have never felt as connected to God and the universe as I did in the temple.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know I feel a literally physical difference when I step onto the temple grounds &#8211; a change in atmosphere, if you will.  It&#8217;s as if I truly have left &#8220;the world&#8221; and entered a parallel dimension.  That feeling intensifies when I actually step into the temple and the doors close behind me.</p>
<p>(In that light, it&#8217;s interesting to me how the presentation begins &#8211; where it places us, both in physical space and in narrative view &#8211; seeing the creation from outside our own worldly limits.  I absolutely LOVE that aspect.)</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101710</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[annegb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101710</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I mean, the initiation is ritualistic, I suppose some dim comparison could be made.  But then, if we&#039;re going to do that kind of comparison, why not to mass?  It&#039;s similar in the same way that the Masonic rituals are.  Perhaps we&#039;re all closet Catholics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mean, the initiation is ritualistic, I suppose some dim comparison could be made.  But then, if we&#8217;re going to do that kind of comparison, why not to mass?  It&#8217;s similar in the same way that the Masonic rituals are.  Perhaps we&#8217;re all closet Catholics.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101709</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[annegb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101709</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was a Rainbow Girl as a teen (the teen chapter for girls of the Masons).  Nothing remotely like the temple ceremony involved in the initiation rites.   Really.  I&#039;m sure there must be something to this claim, but it&#039;s over emphasized imho.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was a Rainbow Girl as a teen (the teen chapter for girls of the Masons).  Nothing remotely like the temple ceremony involved in the initiation rites.   Really.  I&#8217;m sure there must be something to this claim, but it&#8217;s over emphasized imho.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101708</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found this reading list:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/journal-files/Issues/sep-oct05/calloway.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Masonic Enlightenment&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this reading list:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/journal-files/Issues/sep-oct05/calloway.html" rel="nofollow">Masonic Enlightenment</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Taber</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/24/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101707</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Taber]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/06/thinking-the-temple/#comment-101707</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not only a place out of time (note how few clocks there are inside the building) - but also a place out of place.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not only a place out of time (note how few clocks there are inside the building) &#8211; but also a place out of place.</p>
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