Comments on: Respectful Distance

By: Ray

Ray — Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:53:23 +0000

Thanks for sharing that, Rick. It was said beautifully and eloquently and with a wonderful spirit.

By: Rick

Rick — Mon, 23 Jul 2007 06:02:57 +0000

I also find this topic of great interest. Comment #10 somehow struck a chord with me. I’m a Jewish person with many LDS friends and some family, so I know something about both LDS beliefs and culture. I know they typically are respectful of other religions, or at least of other people, even as they try to convert everyone to their viewpoint. Thus, while I appreciate the interest in Judaism and its rituals and holidays, there is something distressing about seeing it turned into a “showpiece” put on my outsiders to our tradition. For me, I am very concerned about Christians seeing Judaism as an “old” covenant that has been now superseded and now only of historical or cultural interest. Through Christian history, that has been at the core of Christian efforts to exterminate Jews and their religion. So while I respect the desire to understand, I think it would be more helpful to experience our rituals and holidays in their living context, celebrated with believing Jews within the Jewish community. Without this spiritual connection, they are nothing more than cultural curiosities.

By: Ray

Ray — Fri, 20 Jul 2007 02:06:48 +0000

Jacob, one of the hardest parts of parenting for me has been to try to walk the proper balance between teaching my kids to tolerate what only should be tolerated and teaching them to be open-minded enough to distinguish and accept different descriptions of core truth. I don’t want them to be intolerant and close-minded, but I also don’t want them to be swayed by every wind of doctrine. I have tried to teach them to listen closely enough to discern what, for lack of a better description, is crap and what is the same thing they believe but just phrased or framed in different terms.

Like you said, I want to immerse them in the Gospel, but I want that immersion to emphasize the Gospel – not just the peculiar way modern Western Mormons tend to describe the Gospel. Also, being a school teacher by training, I understand that the formative years for most of what my children internalize that shapes their fundamental perspectives extends perhaps to their 8th or 9th birthday – trying to be generous. That puts tremendous import on how well I teach the doctrines of the Church, but, IMO, it places even more responsibility on me to frame that doctrine within a broader ability to ask, listen and discern – both intellectually and spiritually.

To me, it is that effort to ask, listen and discern that is the best measure of establishing “respectful distance”. If I have a question about the proper distance (or even if distance matters in a particular situation), I should be willing to ask a believer, listen to their advice and discern the applicability of that advice. That puts the responsibility directly on me to make the final decision, but that is the way I want it.

By: Jacob

Jacob — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:44:02 +0000

Actually, what I mean is that when their young, they need to be immersed in the religion so that they get it into their hearts. After they have ours in their hearts, then we can worry about exposing them to ideas of other faiths. But we could always teach them tolerance to others, anyway.

By: Jacob

Jacob — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 23:42:23 +0000

Here’s an idea: Let’s focus on teaching them the good things of our own religion!

By: Kevin Barney

Kevin Barney — Wed, 18 Jul 2007 18:09:43 +0000

Ah, your 10 commandments example reflects a rhetorical device called enallage. See my article on Enallage in the BoM here. Since this topic comes up so rarely, when I see allusions to it I have to point it out!

By: Joshua A.

Joshua A. — Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:23:29 +0000

Tracy, it’s a good post asking good questions. I addressed only Judaism because those are the family and social circles in which I’ve moved throughout my life, and therefore the only religious tradition I though I could properly discuss. And that’s very observant of you to point out the idea of a personal relationship with God in Judaism. The general idea that I remember from seminary and other LDS religious education plays down this idea. But I remember very clearly the first time reading the Torah that I realized that all of the Commandments are written in the 2nd person singular, not the plural, as though God was speaking to each individual. And hey, if you switch around some dots and dashes (which probably weren’t there originally anyway), each of those verbs could be either for a male or female.

Holy envy…I have to admit, first time I’ve heard the term. I’ll read some of those links. I don’t want to threadjack this, though, into a thread just about Judaism, so I’ll go back to my corner…

By: Kevin Barney

Kevin Barney — Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:29:13 +0000

I second Kristine's recommendation of Steve's book, which is now completely online.

By: Kristine

Kristine — Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:21:10 +0000

Joshua A.–thanks for chiming in. Like many Mormons (apparently), I also have some of what Krister Stendahl called “holy envy” for the rituals and the sense of a long history in Judaism. I’ve always felt very skittish, though, about performing those rituals in my home, as though I were trespassing someone else’s holy space. So we read about the festivals, and talk about the underlying similarities, but stop short of actually lighting a menorah or having a seder.

I think your perception of how Mormons think about Jews is sadly accurate in general. However, there’s some evidence that Joseph Smith believed that the Jews’ covenant status would be honored, without them converting. Steven Epperson’s book _Mormons and Jews_ is a fascinating exploration of a bit of Mormon history and thought that most Mormons have never heard of.

For reference, here are just a few of the envious things some Mormons have written about Jewish festivals and ritual…

http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3487 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2652
http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3804
http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3586
http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3031

By: Tracy M

Tracy M — Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:59:33 +0000

Lamonte- That’s a big question, and one I’m certain I cannot adequately answer here.

The Judaic tradition allows great room for a deeply personal relationship with God. Not all faiths allow this- and this was a serious issue for me. This was also THE thing that opened the possibility of Mormonism.

That’s the Cliff’s Note version.