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	<title>Comments on: Church Finances</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: The accountant</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/#comment-84664</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The accountant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/church-finances/#comment-84664</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Church is required to file financial reports in Great Britain. Go here www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/ScannedAccountsEnds51000242451_ac_20051231_e_c.pdf  to see the 2005 report.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Church is required to file financial reports in Great Britain. Go here <a href="http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/ScannedAccountsEnds51000242451_ac_20051231_e_c.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/ScannedAccountsEnds51000242451_ac_20051231_e_c.pdf</a>  to see the 2005 report.</p>
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		<title>By: Ritter</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/#comment-84663</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ritter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/church-finances/#comment-84663</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Statements that church assets don&#039;t produce income are incomplete.

Shortly after the church announced a new temple would be built in our area, a member of the Seventy visited for a conference. In what I thought was a surprising disclosure, he said initial tithing compliance more than doubles in areas with new temples. Eventually, it levels off but remains significantly higher than in areas without temples. He also said the church will sometimes buy multiple parcels of land where they hope to someday build a temple or meetinghouse and will later sell off most of the properties for a profit to help finance construction or plow the money back into the general church fund.

It reminds of a friend who manages real estate for a major grocery retailer. She says they sell food barely above cost and make most of their money buying and selling real estate. Groceries pay the taxes on the land and not much more.

I would like to see the church disclose finances because I think it would be interesting but I understand their hesitancy. I personally know one person who quit paying tithing when she found out how much the church paid for the new scoreboard at Cougar stadium a few years ago.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Statements that church assets don&#8217;t produce income are incomplete.</p>
<p>Shortly after the church announced a new temple would be built in our area, a member of the Seventy visited for a conference. In what I thought was a surprising disclosure, he said initial tithing compliance more than doubles in areas with new temples. Eventually, it levels off but remains significantly higher than in areas without temples. He also said the church will sometimes buy multiple parcels of land where they hope to someday build a temple or meetinghouse and will later sell off most of the properties for a profit to help finance construction or plow the money back into the general church fund.</p>
<p>It reminds of a friend who manages real estate for a major grocery retailer. She says they sell food barely above cost and make most of their money buying and selling real estate. Groceries pay the taxes on the land and not much more.</p>
<p>I would like to see the church disclose finances because I think it would be interesting but I understand their hesitancy. I personally know one person who quit paying tithing when she found out how much the church paid for the new scoreboard at Cougar stadium a few years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: AHLDuke</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/#comment-84662</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AHLDuke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/church-finances/#comment-84662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I admit my own ambivalence about the Church&#039;s revelation of its finances.  I agree with #12 that knowing how much money is out there might encourage some other lawsuits against the Church.  I have looked a little at the pending case in Oregon (http://weightermatters.blogspot.com/2007/07/church-snipers-on-roof.html)and I think that this case is clearly not one in which the Church should have to reveal its finances.  That being said, for future reference, the Church ought to try to explicitly lay out in detail the authority structure of the Church and where responsibility lies.  I have seen some other cases where issues regarding the Church organization are involved and the court/jury have struggled figuring out what the doctrine or the organization consists of, just because there are no authoritative statements on it anywhere.  Whether the Church&#039;s legal theory (we aren&#039;t responsible for the HT/VT&#039;s actions) is accepted by a court is another story.

For curiosity&#039;s sake, I would love to know how much money the Church has and how it is being spent.  For the non-lawyers, all non-profits that qualify for tax exemption have to submit annual reports of their finances and activities to the IRS, except for churches.  So our Church is no exception.  So we need to decide whether we are talking about a legal requirement of disclosure or just a moral imperative.  On the other hand, I don&#039;t want to see the Church coffers become the object of such scrutiny by those who want to bring the Church down.  I am sure that some Church investments have failed, lost money, etc. and enemies of the Church would love to find that out.  Plus, I would hate to see the members begin to squabble over money.  You know that once the Church finances were known, everyone would be asking SLC for contributions to their own pet Church-related project. We may be better off not knowing and trusting that they are spent wisely.  But as I said at the beginning of this comment, I remain ambivalent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admit my own ambivalence about the Church&#8217;s revelation of its finances.  I agree with #12 that knowing how much money is out there might encourage some other lawsuits against the Church.  I have looked a little at the pending case in Oregon (<a href="http://weightermatters.blogspot.com/2007/07/church-snipers-on-roof.html" rel="nofollow">http://weightermatters.blogspot.com/2007/07/church-snipers-on-roof.html</a>)and I think that this case is clearly not one in which the Church should have to reveal its finances.  That being said, for future reference, the Church ought to try to explicitly lay out in detail the authority structure of the Church and where responsibility lies.  I have seen some other cases where issues regarding the Church organization are involved and the court/jury have struggled figuring out what the doctrine or the organization consists of, just because there are no authoritative statements on it anywhere.  Whether the Church&#8217;s legal theory (we aren&#8217;t responsible for the HT/VT&#8217;s actions) is accepted by a court is another story.</p>
<p>For curiosity&#8217;s sake, I would love to know how much money the Church has and how it is being spent.  For the non-lawyers, all non-profits that qualify for tax exemption have to submit annual reports of their finances and activities to the IRS, except for churches.  So our Church is no exception.  So we need to decide whether we are talking about a legal requirement of disclosure or just a moral imperative.  On the other hand, I don&#8217;t want to see the Church coffers become the object of such scrutiny by those who want to bring the Church down.  I am sure that some Church investments have failed, lost money, etc. and enemies of the Church would love to find that out.  Plus, I would hate to see the members begin to squabble over money.  You know that once the Church finances were known, everyone would be asking SLC for contributions to their own pet Church-related project. We may be better off not knowing and trusting that they are spent wisely.  But as I said at the beginning of this comment, I remain ambivalent.</p>
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		<title>By: J.A.T.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/#comment-84661</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.A.T.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/church-finances/#comment-84661</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see several comments here distrusting the people&#039;s right to know based on a perceived assessment of the ability of the masses to comprehend the information, assess it accurately, and interpolate the information for themselves &quot;safely&quot;.

Sheesh folks. We already broke through this during the Renaissance.

15th Century Europe:
&quot;Let the people read the scriptures themselves? Gee, what if they are too stupid to get it? We should interpret it for them.&quot;

21st Century Bloggersphere:
&quot;Let the people read the spreadsheets themselves?
Gee, what if they are too stupid to get it? We should interpret it for them.&quot;

Information is nearly a breathing thing, in that it will always seek to be free.

p.s. I know spreadsheets and scriptures aren&#039;t the same thing. However, isn&#039;t it odd that the two arguments for filtered disclosure are so similar?

p.s.s. I urge everyone reading this thread to take caution in that $ is a very contentous topic, and the appropriation of church assests has been a stumbling block for many Apostles, early &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; modern. Judas, comes to mind very quickly, as does Marsh.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see several comments here distrusting the people&#8217;s right to know based on a perceived assessment of the ability of the masses to comprehend the information, assess it accurately, and interpolate the information for themselves &#8220;safely&#8221;.</p>
<p>Sheesh folks. We already broke through this during the Renaissance.</p>
<p>15th Century Europe:<br />
&#8220;Let the people read the scriptures themselves? Gee, what if they are too stupid to get it? We should interpret it for them.&#8221;</p>
<p>21st Century Bloggersphere:<br />
&#8220;Let the people read the spreadsheets themselves?<br />
Gee, what if they are too stupid to get it? We should interpret it for them.&#8221;</p>
<p>Information is nearly a breathing thing, in that it will always seek to be free.</p>
<p>p.s. I know spreadsheets and scriptures aren&#8217;t the same thing. However, isn&#8217;t it odd that the two arguments for filtered disclosure are so similar?</p>
<p>p.s.s. I urge everyone reading this thread to take caution in that $ is a very contentous topic, and the appropriation of church assests has been a stumbling block for many Apostles, early <em>and</em> modern. Judas, comes to mind very quickly, as does Marsh.</p>
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		<title>By: NonProfitScholar</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/#comment-84660</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[NonProfitScholar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/church-finances/#comment-84660</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just imagine what would happen if these financial records were disclosed.  No matter how good the books are, there would still be things in them to argue about. This way, the accountants get to do the arguing and the rest of us don&#039;t have to waste our time on it.  The whole reason for transparency in corporate accounting is that the profit/greed motive is always present. In the church, that simply isn&#039;t the case, and even if there were cases of embezzlement, this kind of reporting isn&#039;t what would reveal that.  This is all very much like the exhortation not to question our leaders. It isn&#039;t because they are always right, it&#039;s just because a culture of always second guessing the person in charge would kill a nonprofit voluntary organization like we&#039;re running. Better to do stupid things occasionally because the bishop says so than to waste all of our time and energy bickering.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just imagine what would happen if these financial records were disclosed.  No matter how good the books are, there would still be things in them to argue about. This way, the accountants get to do the arguing and the rest of us don&#8217;t have to waste our time on it.  The whole reason for transparency in corporate accounting is that the profit/greed motive is always present. In the church, that simply isn&#8217;t the case, and even if there were cases of embezzlement, this kind of reporting isn&#8217;t what would reveal that.  This is all very much like the exhortation not to question our leaders. It isn&#8217;t because they are always right, it&#8217;s just because a culture of always second guessing the person in charge would kill a nonprofit voluntary organization like we&#8217;re running. Better to do stupid things occasionally because the bishop says so than to waste all of our time and energy bickering.</p>
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		<title>By: MormonTechie</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/#comment-84659</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MormonTechie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/church-finances/#comment-84659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You make a really good point in your entry.  The church is not a business or a corporation and should not be one.  I think that turning the church into a business is another one of the adversary&#039;s tools to turn people away from God and the blessings of belief.  Very dangerous.

Thanks for the read and chance to think about tithing and why it is that I pay it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make a really good point in your entry.  The church is not a business or a corporation and should not be one.  I think that turning the church into a business is another one of the adversary&#8217;s tools to turn people away from God and the blessings of belief.  Very dangerous.</p>
<p>Thanks for the read and chance to think about tithing and why it is that I pay it.</p>
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		<title>By: WE</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/#comment-84658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WE]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 02:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/church-finances/#comment-84658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Melinda: re running afoul of the IRS, who says the church or its for-profits&#039; haven&#039;t already? Or won&#039;t?

Critics are going to be critics whether the funds are disclosed or not. And perhaps eventually, the funds will have to be disclosed anyway. What is the secret?

Sacred funds, not secret funds! Operate in the light, not in the dark. This is not the Mafia, but the Kingdom of God on Earth, it operates in the light of day, not in the darkness of night. Right?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Melinda: re running afoul of the IRS, who says the church or its for-profits&#8217; haven&#8217;t already? Or won&#8217;t?</p>
<p>Critics are going to be critics whether the funds are disclosed or not. And perhaps eventually, the funds will have to be disclosed anyway. What is the secret?</p>
<p>Sacred funds, not secret funds! Operate in the light, not in the dark. This is not the Mafia, but the Kingdom of God on Earth, it operates in the light of day, not in the darkness of night. Right?</p>
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		<title>By: C Song</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/#comment-84657</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[C Song]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/church-finances/#comment-84657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[SamMB, you said, &quot;I do not go to church to engage in business networking or sell products...The church is not a business or a corporation and should not be one.&quot;

I completely agree.  This is exactly why the Church should disclose the use of funds that are charitably given - to openly and honestly deal with its fellow men by proving that it is not just running a &quot;corporation.&quot;

The truth has nothing to hide, does it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SamMB, you said, &#8220;I do not go to church to engage in business networking or sell products&#8230;The church is not a business or a corporation and should not be one.&#8221;</p>
<p>I completely agree.  This is exactly why the Church should disclose the use of funds that are charitably given &#8211; to openly and honestly deal with its fellow men by proving that it is not just running a &#8220;corporation.&#8221;</p>
<p>The truth has nothing to hide, does it?</p>
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		<title>By: Clayton</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/#comment-84656</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clayton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/church-finances/#comment-84656</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe that President Hinckley has stated tithing funds are not being used for the downtown SLC project.

Tithing is more of a principle of faith than it is money.  Part of this faith comes in the giving of our funds, but also in how these funs are used (even if we may think that the funds could be used more wisely elsewhere).  We are limited in our ability to see the whole picture and the presiding bishopric, quorum of 12, and the first presidency are not.

I am not in favor of disclosure, especially in this case where liability has not been established.

The church has nothing to hide in my opinion.  But just because it has nothing to hide does not mean that it should disclose all of its financial information. Even if the information is disclosed, some will still not be satisfied, no matter what the church does.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that President Hinckley has stated tithing funds are not being used for the downtown SLC project.</p>
<p>Tithing is more of a principle of faith than it is money.  Part of this faith comes in the giving of our funds, but also in how these funs are used (even if we may think that the funds could be used more wisely elsewhere).  We are limited in our ability to see the whole picture and the presiding bishopric, quorum of 12, and the first presidency are not.</p>
<p>I am not in favor of disclosure, especially in this case where liability has not been established.</p>
<p>The church has nothing to hide in my opinion.  But just because it has nothing to hide does not mean that it should disclose all of its financial information. Even if the information is disclosed, some will still not be satisfied, no matter what the church does.</p>
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		<title>By: Melinda</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/20/church-finances/#comment-84655</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Melinda]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/07/church-finances/#comment-84655</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Church&#039;s tithing dollars can only be used on non-profit religious expenditures like building temples, financing ward budgets, and funding BYU.  Tithing dollars can&#039;t be used for commercial development, or the church would run afoul of the IRS.

I do not want disclosure.  I&#039;m satisfied that my tithing is used for non-profit religious purposes, and I really don&#039;t need to see the specific breakdown.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Church&#8217;s tithing dollars can only be used on non-profit religious expenditures like building temples, financing ward budgets, and funding BYU.  Tithing dollars can&#8217;t be used for commercial development, or the church would run afoul of the IRS.</p>
<p>I do not want disclosure.  I&#8217;m satisfied that my tithing is used for non-profit religious purposes, and I really don&#8217;t need to see the specific breakdown.</p>
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