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	<title>Comments on: A Spontaneous People or a Prepared People?</title>
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		<title>By: By Common Consent &#187; Dialogue 40/3 (2007)</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/15/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87980</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[By Common Consent &#187; Dialogue 40/3 (2007)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 01:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] in Failed Prophecy, 1930 to 1970&#8243; Dave blogged with us for a little bit this summer (here, here and here) and is found wielding some of his Religious Studies skillz in an analysis of some [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in Failed Prophecy, 1930 to 1970&#8243; Dave blogged with us for a little bit this summer (here, here and here) and is found wielding some of his Religious Studies skillz in an analysis of some [...]</p>
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		<title>By: BobW</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/15/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87979</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BobW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 05:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is an STJ church. Spontaneity really does make them nervous. Not only that, but deviation from the Handbook of instructions is frightening.

In PEC I made a short discourse on the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith compiled by J.F. Smith. There were people in the room made skittish by that. Too much spontaneity! Too many possibilities.

Mercy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an STJ church. Spontaneity really does make them nervous. Not only that, but deviation from the Handbook of instructions is frightening.</p>
<p>In PEC I made a short discourse on the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith compiled by J.F. Smith. There were people in the room made skittish by that. Too much spontaneity! Too many possibilities.</p>
<p>Mercy.</p>
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		<title>By: Bongo</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/15/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87978</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bongo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 01:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87978</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#9 What?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#9 What?</p>
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		<title>By: Razorfish</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/15/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87977</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Razorfish]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 02:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87977</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#7.

It is interesting to see a divergent format of worship services within the COC umbrella.  I am frankly amazed at how scripted, identical, orthodox and branded our meetings have become.  Not only are the meetings so very similiar anywhere in the states, but most of the expressions of worship and language are surprisingly very similar.  This is a function of the tightly centralized administrative model (and General Handbook of Instruction and administrative oversight).

The amount of energy spent by ecclesiatical leaders on standardizing and branding the worship experience down to what instruments are appropriate and what clothing or appearance is appropriate is...stunning.

Yes, we are very effective at creating a uniquely standardized 3 hour block format, but also at some cost.  The cost in my estimation is born out in many facets: boredom, lack of variety, etc.  This is usually sacrificed in the mantra of &quot;providing a reverent atmosphere conducisive to the Spirit.&quot;

This may be partly true, but I know in watching other worship services (non-LDS), the Spirit can certainly be felt strongly (especially with all kinds of instruments) and many of the participants are much more engaged in the worship experience and praising, and worshipping etc.  Our pentacostal friends sure look like they are enjoying themselves more at church than many of us.
Obviously, there is a balance that needs to be struck, but my impression is that we are very far on the conservative end of the worship spectrum.

There certainly good be additional worship models that differ from our present format that could be viable and productive expressions of our faith.  I just don&#039;t see any material changes coming in my lifetime....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#7.</p>
<p>It is interesting to see a divergent format of worship services within the COC umbrella.  I am frankly amazed at how scripted, identical, orthodox and branded our meetings have become.  Not only are the meetings so very similiar anywhere in the states, but most of the expressions of worship and language are surprisingly very similar.  This is a function of the tightly centralized administrative model (and General Handbook of Instruction and administrative oversight).</p>
<p>The amount of energy spent by ecclesiatical leaders on standardizing and branding the worship experience down to what instruments are appropriate and what clothing or appearance is appropriate is&#8230;stunning.</p>
<p>Yes, we are very effective at creating a uniquely standardized 3 hour block format, but also at some cost.  The cost in my estimation is born out in many facets: boredom, lack of variety, etc.  This is usually sacrificed in the mantra of &#8220;providing a reverent atmosphere conducisive to the Spirit.&#8221;</p>
<p>This may be partly true, but I know in watching other worship services (non-LDS), the Spirit can certainly be felt strongly (especially with all kinds of instruments) and many of the participants are much more engaged in the worship experience and praising, and worshipping etc.  Our pentacostal friends sure look like they are enjoying themselves more at church than many of us.<br />
Obviously, there is a balance that needs to be struck, but my impression is that we are very far on the conservative end of the worship spectrum.</p>
<p>There certainly good be additional worship models that differ from our present format that could be viable and productive expressions of our faith.  I just don&#8217;t see any material changes coming in my lifetime&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevinf</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/15/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87976</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevinf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87976</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I don&#039;t know; I&#039;m making it up as I go&quot;, Indiana Jones]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t know; I&#8217;m making it up as I go&#8221;, Indiana Jones</p>
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		<title>By: amri</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/15/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87975</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[amri]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 21:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87975</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Spontaneity makes white people nervous.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spontaneity makes white people nervous.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/15/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87974</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87974</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Frankly, I think the balance each of us chooses between spontaneity and preparation depends largely on our learning modalities and our past experiences.  I prepare my talks carefully and far in advance, but I rarely write out a full talk - word-for-word.  I usually think about the topic until about two or three days prior to when I am to give it.  I then write out a simple outline, sketching out the main points and the scriptures and quotes I plan on using, creating a talk that can last the maximum time I might end up having to use.  Sometimes, I write out an entire talk, but that occurs only when I feel like I am being inspired as to the exact message I am supposed to share.

My last talk fit the fully written and read model; the one before that remained in outline form.  The two I am giving this month both are outlined only; one is for an entire congregation and the other is for a PH Leadership meeting.

My point is that this approach to preparation fits the way I learn and the way I have found success in the past.  I like the fact that we aren&#039;t told by the Church how to prepare for and construct our talks and lessons.  We are given general guidelines and suggestions, but, ultimately, the exact hows and whats are left up to us.  The more experience we gain, the more we are able to combine preparation and inspiration - and gain confidence to prepare then set aside under the immediate influence of the Holy Ghost.

On the balance, I would say our model is more toward inspiration, while our practical application is anywhere along the spectrum.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frankly, I think the balance each of us chooses between spontaneity and preparation depends largely on our learning modalities and our past experiences.  I prepare my talks carefully and far in advance, but I rarely write out a full talk &#8211; word-for-word.  I usually think about the topic until about two or three days prior to when I am to give it.  I then write out a simple outline, sketching out the main points and the scriptures and quotes I plan on using, creating a talk that can last the maximum time I might end up having to use.  Sometimes, I write out an entire talk, but that occurs only when I feel like I am being inspired as to the exact message I am supposed to share.</p>
<p>My last talk fit the fully written and read model; the one before that remained in outline form.  The two I am giving this month both are outlined only; one is for an entire congregation and the other is for a PH Leadership meeting.</p>
<p>My point is that this approach to preparation fits the way I learn and the way I have found success in the past.  I like the fact that we aren&#8217;t told by the Church how to prepare for and construct our talks and lessons.  We are given general guidelines and suggestions, but, ultimately, the exact hows and whats are left up to us.  The more experience we gain, the more we are able to combine preparation and inspiration &#8211; and gain confidence to prepare then set aside under the immediate influence of the Holy Ghost.</p>
<p>On the balance, I would say our model is more toward inspiration, while our practical application is anywhere along the spectrum.</p>
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		<title>By: David Howlett</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/15/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87973</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Howlett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87973</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Everyone&#039;s comments have been very interesting. As much as I study LDS people, I will never have the insights that many of you have as participants.

#3--J. Stapley--I also really like John Corrill&#039;s take on the Kirtland Endowment. By the time her wrote this statement, he was a disaffected member, but he still had strong sympathies for the saints. Though accused by some of being a traitor for helping with the surrender of Far West, he died penniless due to his attempts to help destitute saints after the 1838 Mormon War in Missouri. His short history seems very even-handed when compared with other accounts.

There is a larger question, too, from a religious studies perspective about how certain substances can act alter one&#039;s state and open them to different experiences--potentially divine experienes from a believer&#039;s perspective. I&#039;m not talking about Timothy O&#039;Leary&#039;s famous advice on LSD, either. I&#039;m just thinking about how substances like wine or peyote or ascetic practices like fasting place people between worlds, if you will, in a liminal state. Of course, whatever biologically happens to a person in such a state is meaningless without a tradition that informs the experience. Drinking wine in the Solemn Assembly was certainly different and was not the same experience as drinking wine at a tavern. Context is everything here--even if one drank the same amount. As a believer, I am not at all opposed to imputing a real, spiritual encounter with God through a biologically altered means such as fasting. But this is a digression.

As to the CofC, I see tensions between &quot;preparation&quot; and &quot;spontaneity played out in several fields at this moment. Some CofC congregations have opted for a contemporary worship format rather than a traditional service. When I attended one such service recently, the people in hccrge of the service emphasized the informality of the worship. &#039;If you feel like praising God in the middle of the service or raising your hands, go right ahead,&quot; said the presider. I was surprised, though, that the serice oddly enough took on the traditional hymn-sandwich format of most traditional services--except that instead of four-part hymns, there were praise songs with a guitar in which everyone rose to their feet and clapped their hands. In addition, the praise songs were on powerpoint and had pictures, too, accompanying the text--which of course, took more than your average preparation. So, the informality of the worship was really a style of formality. Everyone knew when to clap, and everyone knew when to be silent and listen. The congregation was filled with people that day, too, with small children everywhere; obviously many were reached by this version of spntaneous formality. And, to be qite honest, though I prefer a more traditional service, I felt ministered to, also.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everyone&#8217;s comments have been very interesting. As much as I study LDS people, I will never have the insights that many of you have as participants.</p>
<p>#3&#8211;J. Stapley&#8211;I also really like John Corrill&#8217;s take on the Kirtland Endowment. By the time her wrote this statement, he was a disaffected member, but he still had strong sympathies for the saints. Though accused by some of being a traitor for helping with the surrender of Far West, he died penniless due to his attempts to help destitute saints after the 1838 Mormon War in Missouri. His short history seems very even-handed when compared with other accounts.</p>
<p>There is a larger question, too, from a religious studies perspective about how certain substances can act alter one&#8217;s state and open them to different experiences&#8211;potentially divine experienes from a believer&#8217;s perspective. I&#8217;m not talking about Timothy O&#8217;Leary&#8217;s famous advice on LSD, either. I&#8217;m just thinking about how substances like wine or peyote or ascetic practices like fasting place people between worlds, if you will, in a liminal state. Of course, whatever biologically happens to a person in such a state is meaningless without a tradition that informs the experience. Drinking wine in the Solemn Assembly was certainly different and was not the same experience as drinking wine at a tavern. Context is everything here&#8211;even if one drank the same amount. As a believer, I am not at all opposed to imputing a real, spiritual encounter with God through a biologically altered means such as fasting. But this is a digression.</p>
<p>As to the CofC, I see tensions between &#8220;preparation&#8221; and &#8220;spontaneity played out in several fields at this moment. Some CofC congregations have opted for a contemporary worship format rather than a traditional service. When I attended one such service recently, the people in hccrge of the service emphasized the informality of the worship. &#8216;If you feel like praising God in the middle of the service or raising your hands, go right ahead,&#8221; said the presider. I was surprised, though, that the serice oddly enough took on the traditional hymn-sandwich format of most traditional services&#8211;except that instead of four-part hymns, there were praise songs with a guitar in which everyone rose to their feet and clapped their hands. In addition, the praise songs were on powerpoint and had pictures, too, accompanying the text&#8211;which of course, took more than your average preparation. So, the informality of the worship was really a style of formality. Everyone knew when to clap, and everyone knew when to be silent and listen. The congregation was filled with people that day, too, with small children everywhere; obviously many were reached by this version of spntaneous formality. And, to be qite honest, though I prefer a more traditional service, I felt ministered to, also.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/15/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87972</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jacob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87972</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We are much more a spontaneous people.  The vast majority of our prayers are spontaneous, as are one meeting a month.

However, there are certain times when something needs to be prepared ahead of time - ie, a timed comference talk - but that doesn&#039;t negate the opprotunity of spontaneaity (however that&#039;s spelled) if it should arise.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are much more a spontaneous people.  The vast majority of our prayers are spontaneous, as are one meeting a month.</p>
<p>However, there are certain times when something needs to be prepared ahead of time &#8211; ie, a timed comference talk &#8211; but that doesn&#8217;t negate the opprotunity of spontaneaity (however that&#8217;s spelled) if it should arise.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/15/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87971</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 18:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/08/a-spontaneous-people-or-a-prepared-people/#comment-87971</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An interesting set of questions.

On speaking in church, I know a lot of people who think &quot;speaking by the Spirit&quot; without advance preparation is the ideal.  It&#039;s ok with me if someone can pull it off, but these days I would never stand up at a pulpit without having something prepared.  Maybe I lack faith, but that would be outside of my comfort zone.  It might be easy for someone who is immersed in the Gospel on a full-time basis (missionaries, GAs) to stand up there and riff on their recent experiences, but I don&#039;t have much confidence that if I just stood up there expecting some sort of oratorical miracle that it would come.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting set of questions.</p>
<p>On speaking in church, I know a lot of people who think &#8220;speaking by the Spirit&#8221; without advance preparation is the ideal.  It&#8217;s ok with me if someone can pull it off, but these days I would never stand up at a pulpit without having something prepared.  Maybe I lack faith, but that would be outside of my comfort zone.  It might be easy for someone who is immersed in the Gospel on a full-time basis (missionaries, GAs) to stand up there and riff on their recent experiences, but I don&#8217;t have much confidence that if I just stood up there expecting some sort of oratorical miracle that it would come.</p>
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