The Goods

At the final day, the Savior will not ask the nature of our callings. He will not inquire about our material blessings or fame. He will ask if we ministered to the sick, gave food and drink to the hungry, visited those in prison, or gave succor to the weak.

- Joseph B. Wirthlin

Comments

  1. That’s gorgeous and prophetic, even if it restates something very familiar. Thanks for sharing, Ronan.

  2. Steve Evans says:

    I have never visited anyone in prison. Does anyone know if the concepts of incarceration correlate from Jesus’ time?

  3. I love Joseph B. Wirthlin. I look forawrd to reading him on Thursday…

  4. Amen! It’s those thoughts that keep many of us from joining organized religions. When I read the Gospels – not Paul’s letters, or the OT, or any of the other scriptures – I get the overwhelming sense that all that matters is who you are and how you treat other people.

  5. 100% agree. I wish we heard more and more of how to live the gospel in this way.

  6. Banky,

    I’m not sure Mormons really know what awaits them. On the one hand, we have admonitions like Elder Wirthlin’s; on the other are the angels who act as sentinels whose concerns seem more, well, legalistic. Perhaps someone can provide a simple paradigm that combines the two.

    On the other hand, perhaps we should just let JBW’s words stand as they are, unsullied by theological muddling.

    Steve,

    I think prisons were generally used to hold people pre-trial. There were also debtors’ prisons.

  7. Neal Peters says:

    This is what the Gospel is really about. I wish more talks were like this.

  8. When you hear someone talking about succoring the weak while being helped to stand in order to complete the talk – and when you hear someone talking about Jesus trembling with pain as the speaker himself is shaking but determined to finish his message – Those images will remain with me for years.

  9. By far for me the most moving of all the talks at conference. I sometimes think that it may just be this simple. Everything else can be dealt with later, but how is your heart?

  10. StillConfused says:

    I am glad to see basic Christian principles being reiterated.

  11. Done your home/visit teaching this month?

  12. But, of course there’s another step beyond the “doing.” It’s how the doing changes us in our “being.” I think of it as the evolution of the text of “I Am a Child of God.” It started out as “teach me all that I must know.” I think it was Pres. Kimball that requested the change to “teach me all that I must do.” I’ve thought for years that the text should be changed to “teach me all that I must be.” In the end it’s not about amassing a record of doing good works — it’s about becoming a person who loves and cares and gives because that has become our nature.

  13. Ronan, re # 6,

    If the Gospel sometimes seems legalistic, to use your term, and yet we all find gems of truth in Elder Wirthlin’s simple reminder, are we surprised? If nothing else, this Gospel is a gospel of paradox. For all of Nephi’s glorying in plainness, there are the layers of meaning and symbol in the parable of the olive grove. Yet the Savior’s message really was as simple as Elder Wirthlin describes. That’s why I think getting our hearts right first is the key. Then we can deal with the legalistic aspect later. We knock on the door with a broken heart, not a bundle of briefs and resumes.

  14. Aaron Brown says:

    I truly believe that no matter how many times we hear this sort of admonition, a large number of us simply do not hear it.

    Or, we just don’t believe it.

    Aaron B

  15. Wow, that was fast.

    On topic: I loved Bro. Wirthlin’s talk because it takes us down to the most basic place in the Gospel. Whether we do these things because we love Him, love our neighbors, or both, we draw closer to Christ and do what He would do were he there.

  16. Eric Russell says:

    Ronan, you sexist. This is the line fabricated by The Man to keep women content with their positions of non-power.

  17. Peter LLC says:

    Re #12

    While I’m not going to quibble with the text of a primary song (I reckon that doing good is as fine a start as any on the path to perfection), your comment reminds me of E. Bednar’s talk on the importance of having both clean hands and a pure heart.

  18. I’m already breaking my vow of silence….

    Given limited time and resources, is it “better” to serve my family, the church, the community, etc.? I think it was Elder Ballard that gave the talk “Oh Be Wise” where he counseled that priorities are often shifting- at times, our work my require our full attention, and other times, the church or family will need to be the priority to the exclusion of other interests or needs. So perhaps flexibility is key.

    I have a calling and am a home teacher, and I do my best to fulfill these responsibilities. I often participate in other types of service, such as stake farm, assignments at the temple, etc. But I recognize that my participation is often half hearted. I’m either there out of duty, because I know that no one else can or will do it, or because my wife is dragging me along (she, and I think many women [more naturally than men, anyway], just serve because that’s how they are). For me, the other key then is to learn to serve whomever is in need that I am in a position to help, and to do so out of love as the Savior would. I don’t think He had to stop and ask himself whether he should serve x or y- he just served without a second thought.

  19. Peter LLC says:

    I think many women … just serve because that’s how they are

    I don’t think He had to stop and ask himself whether he should serve x or y

    Yep, that’s why He created XX.

  20. Aaron – I don’t think people don’t believe it, I just think people have their priorities screwed up. We focus on the wrong things often and don’t use Christ’s example enough in church.

  21. I get to see people just prior to their incarceration. Does that count as a prison visit?

  22. Re: Peter #19

    Yep, that’s why He created XX.

    I would say that’s why marriage is so important. The wife generally is more caring, nurturing, and service-oriented, and this hopefully serves as an example to help the husband develop these attributes, but hopefully the husband also is able to help complete the wife….

  23. Antonio Parr says:

    It seems that every General Conference there is a talk that “wows” me, that makes me realize the loss that I would suffer by not being a part of an institution that has such steady pulses of prophetic utterances.

    Last October, it was Elder Oaks’ talk “He Heals the Heavey Laden”. In April, it was President Faust’s talk on forgiveness (which is one of the great sermons of Christendom). This year it was Elder Wirthlin’s talk, which was moving beyond words.

    (Not to mention the absolutley stunning version of “How Firm A Foundation”!)

  24. At the final day, will it matter though whom our ministering was to? Is there a “hierarchy” or priority to the types of service we render? Or, does it essentially defeat the purpose by attempting to limit and plan our service in this way?

  25. Sorry, Jim, but is #24 in response to any particular comment or the post itself – or are they rhetorical questions? Seriously, I’m not sure of the focus.

  26. Jim, # 24,

    The CS Lewis Screwtape Letters quote from Elder Teh in the Saturday sessions might be of help:

    “Do what you will, there is going to be some benevolence, as well as some malice, in your patient’s soul. The great thing is to direct the malice to his immediate neighbours whom he meets every day and to thrust his benevolence out to the remote circumference, to people he does not know. The malice thus becomes wholly real and the benevolence largely imaginary.

    In other words, I take it to mean the closer you can be to giving the service first hand is the most redeeming. There is to me a sense that giving money generously to good causes is nice, but helping the elderly HP widower in your ward with time that is more precious to you may trump that.

  27. While it is possible to perform acts of service and do one’s “duty” without having a deep and abiding testimony of the gospel or a sincere relationship with the Savior, the converse isn’t true. Those that have a deep and personal relationship with the Lord and a real understanding of the gospel find it impossible NOT to serve and administer to others. They do not need titles or mantles to be declared upon them before they feel a sense of obligation to lift and strengthen those that are sick, hungry, lonely, or struggling.

    At the final day the Savior will already know the nature of our callings, blessings and fame and so will we. He will be asking us if we fulfilled the covenants we made throughout our lives with Him to “feed his sheep”, be his hands, carry his name, and do his work.

    It has been said that before you can lift another up, you have to be standing on higher ground than he is, and I think that we will be held equally accountable for the quality of the aid that we each have to offer. Would the Lord rather that we hand out Band-Aids or that we become skilled in the healing medicine of the gospel? Does he ask us to feed those that hunger the eternal nourishment of His word and show them how to draw up His thirst-quenching water or to hand out spiritual junk food and soda (the nutritional value of stones)? Does he wish only for us to pity and lend companionship to the prisoner or does He expect us to show them where to get the keys to their freedom? Are we to be examples of the relief and strength that comes through obedience and the companionship of the Holy Ghost or would He rather that we just remain empathetic in our own weaknesses and without any real comfort to offer?

    When the sum of who we have become is completely revealed at the last day, we will finally “see” and “know” ourselves as we are already “seen” and “known” by the Lord. I think Elder Wirthlin’s hope is that when we are brought to trial and confronted with the evidence from both our pre-mortal life and our earthly probation that there will be enough to convict us as belonging to Christ and to the Church of the Firstborn.

  28. I am constantly amazed at how concisely apostles can say what it takes the rest of us, including myself, so many words to say.

  29. A few years ago I met a Catholic priest whose ministry focuses primarily on prison outreach. In talking with him about what motivated him to return, day after day, to such bleak, hopeless, and often dangerous situations, he responded something to the effect of “If Jesus were here, he’d be with the people in prison. They are the most despised and rejected of all of God’s children.” His words really struck me and I have never forgotten the spirit I felt when he said it.

    Today I do pro bono work for immigrant children/teenagers who have been detained by ICE–I’m working now on a way for the YM/YM in our ward to do a service project for these incarcerated kids. I think it is important that we teach the youth/our children to view incarcerated individuals as human beings deserving of our compassion. All too often they are made out to be monsters/sub-human.

  30. #2

    Steve, here is an in depth article on “prison/prisoners” as they relate to the time of Christ etc.

  31. er…..?

  32. Or here as I can’t get the first link to work…

  33. #28 Ray-

    I agree, but I also found it deeply significant that Elder Wirthlin seemed determined not to step away from the pulpit until his entire message was delivered personally.

  34. Abish, not to sound ungrateful, but that article doesn’t really tell me much. It’s much more about making NZ prisons more Christlike than about a comparative perspective on incarceration. I was probably asking for a paper that hasn’t been written yet.

  35. SC Taysom says:

    Steve,

    In the academic world, “asking for a paper that hasn’t been written yet” is known as “getting a great idea for my next journal article.” Get cracking!

  36. Abish (#33), I agree. I have said that exact same thing on more than one blog today. The images of that talk will remain with me LONG after all the others from this conference have faded. It moved me perhaps in some ways more deeply than any other talk I have ever heard at any time from anyone.

  37. No problem Steve. I hope you don’t mind if I share my insights?

    The article describes that in NT times prisons did not serve the same purpose as ours today do. They were not facilities that housed prisoners “long term” in hopes of rehabilitation, but rather held them until they could be tried and if found guilty, executed. If those being held could not be proven innocent OR could not make restitution for their crime(s)(at the moment or in the future)the only way out was death.

    Prisoners in NT times were rarely (if ever) offered food (particularly if it was scarce already due to famine etc, or in war times when it went to the kings soldiers etc) or shelter/blankets/relief from the cold or dampness because prisoners were not viewed as worth the investment and if they died prior to trial…oh well. The article speaks of how Paul and others were so traumatized by being held in caves, pits, holes in the ground, and starved etc that they said they would rather die than be held captive again. (The sheer solitude of it was probably maddening)

    After reading the article I had several thoughts about how just having ANY visitor would have comforted such prisoners (if they were allowed visitors)not to mention perhaps being:
    1-sources of real food and clean water
    2-if the prisoner was innocent, visitors would probably bring comfort and assurance that once the facts were made known, the prisoner would be free to keep the prisoner from utter despair.
    3-if the prisoner was guilty, visitors would be there to mourn with those who had cause to mourn, perform religious rites (offer absolution)pray with and love, offer help with unfinished business or to carry messages to loved ones.

    So back to our day…our federal prisons are filled with men and women who have been found guilty for their crimes, and the vast majority will not be executed but instead live out significant portions of their lives without freedom. Can’t we offer the same things to them as anyone else? The bread and nourishment of the gospel, the comfort of friendship and another to mourn with, talk to, and carry messages for?

    And of course, we know of a spiritual prison where our actions by proxy can literally be the source of freedom for those who died without access to God’s laws.It is our obligation to “visit” the temple and perform the vicarious work that frees our brothers and sisters from eternal imprisonment.

  38. cj douglass says:

    Makes me wish I knew someone in prison. I’ll have to start choosing my friends differently. (dead serious)

  39. JA Benson says:

    I have sat with a teenager awaiting a hearing. I have mourned with mothers whose sons were incarcerated. The most life altering moment for me was visiting an orphanage in China. The children there were literally condemned to children’s prison with very little hope for parole. Our meager offering to them was warm pajamas that hopefully would provide a warm night’s sleep. Perhaps it is not just the comfort you bring to others, but also how it changes your own heart.

  40. Re: Ray #25
    These are just general questions that I have, but I did hope for responses.

    kevinf and abish, thank you for your comments. I especially like the idea of proximity of service.

    Initially I wondered if the service I render to my family was sufficient. Service to family is easy for me. But I don’t think service should always be easy. It should require is to get out of comfort zones at times, to stretch us. Joseph Smith said “a man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 174).

    I usually find myself too pre-occupied with my own needs and concerns to be able to render true, Christlike service. Fortunately learning and growing is a process, so there is still hope for me yet.

  41. Thanks, Jim. I wasn’t sure.

    Fwiw, To echo kevinf from a different angle, I always have been bothered by people who claim to love all mankind and prove it by praying for the hungry in Africa (just as a common example) – but who don’t bother to serve in a soup kitchen or volunteer at a homeless or abused woman shelter – who don’t need extra money but hold a yard sale to buy toys instead of donating those items to Good Will or the needy in their own communities – who express love for those far from them but neglect or abuse their own children – who send money to those who warts they can’t see but refuse to help those whose warts they can see – who piously “forgive” a murderer who did not hurt them in any way but refuse to forgive a brother or a fellow worshipper or a neighbor who merely offended them somehow – etc. ad infinitum.

    I think the condition of my heart will be measured less by how many prayers I say for people, as important as that is, but more by how many prayers I answer for people – how many weak knees I strengthen – how many weary and broken hearts I comfort – and, just as importantly, how I allow others to do the same for me.

  42. Elder Nelson’s support of Elder Wirthlin was the perfect visual illustration of Christlike love. This is the best talk Wirthlin has given, hands down. It’s always nice when you can hear what you need to in Conference.

  43. We just finished FHE and we asked each member of our family to share their favorite “moment” or talk etc.( I’m always amazed by what my kids hear that I don’t expect them to.)

    One of our daughters walked in late from her Monday evening college class and heard us talking about Elder Wirthlin. She said that her institute teacher was actually in the conference center when he spoke and told his class what happened that the cameras did not show. As soon as Elder Wirthlin started to tremble, each and every member of the 12 stood as one to come to his aid, but Elder Nelson was the first to reach him. He pushed his hip into Elder Wirthlin’s back to brace him securely and the rest of the brethren took their seats when they saw he had it covered.

    I am ever more deeply inspired by these men and their love and respect for each other and us. Just wanted to share…

  44. I have often wondered how much spiritual nourishment to include with any physical nourishment I may be able to provide. I even once gave a Book of Mormon to a man who stood on the corner asking for money (I also gave him money and food). Somewhere along the way I began to question why I thought that homeless or hungry people needed to hear a sermon about the Lord. Most of them always tell me that God will bless me for my kindness. Seems like they often know about and believe in God. Since coming to that conclusion I have been less likely to include pass along cards, Books of Mormon or any other religious material with my monetary gift. It just began to feel like I was taking advantage of someone who would “listen” just because they were desperate for help. Is it okay to try to feed the hungry or help the poor etc, without trying to convert them to some higher spiritual plain? Half the time I feel like they are already on a higher plain than I am anyway.

  45. Ray #41

    I used to (and still occasionally do) think that way and get frustrated but one day I had to ask myself if I really knew what my neighbors did in every moment of their spare time or if I had the right/ability to read what was in someone else’s heart any more than they do mine. I really cannot honestly say whether my neighbors use the money from their yard sales on themselves or if they donate it to a worthy cause, if they have ever served in a soup kitchen or not, or who they forgive etc. What I DO know is that the Lord loves them just as much as he loves me and that because I stand in desperate need of his forgiveness for my own petty, selfish, and narrow actions, I had better be quick and generous with my forgiveness for others if I want my own sins to change color someday.

    The greatest example of all time was the Savior speaking to His father from the cross on behalf of those that had beaten and spit upon him, mocked him and sought his death-all very open acts of wickedness deserving of divine retribution-with the words “Forgive them Father, they know not what they do”. So now I pray also for my neighbors weaknesses along with my own and ask the Lord to forgive them and me for any short sidedness that might exist. Because what if maybe, just maybe, all that my neighbors need is to witness the sincere,loving friendship and example of another trying to do the will of God?

  46. And to bring it back to Sister Beck’s talk–

    Homemaking involves feeding the hungry and clothing the naked in your own home.

  47. Sara,

    And then washing what you fed them OUT of their clothes, and then feeding them again….and clothing them again…WHILE listening to them whine about what they are being fed and what they are being forced to wear…aaaaaaaaaaaaaa :-)

  48. Abish, thanks for your sentiment, but it cuts the heart and soul out of the very real issue I was addressing – those whose actions I DO see and know. I do not chastise them for these things; that is not my place. However, I do notice and feel frustration for their lack of understanding and the end result of their actions. If I did not do so, I believe I would be less than Christian.

    Please understand, I believe you are sincere in your response, but I have absolutely NO right whatsoever to feel like I can “forgive” others who have not hurt me. That type of “forgiveness” – in my opinion – isn’t actual forgiveness, and it is so easy as to be worthless. It cheapens the incredible pain and suffering and true cost of forgiveness that occurs within those who truly are hurt deeply by others’ actions and are able to let go.

    I don’t judge the people I described personally, but I *must* judge their actions in order to learn from them – good or bad lessons. There is no “forgiveness” involved in what I described – only sadness and frustration for the choices people make. There is a *huge* difference between those two things.

    I think you did not mean to imply that I am sinning somehow when I notice these things and am bothered by them, but that is the tone that comes through the message – that I must “forgive” them to find peace. I have peace – in these instances, complete and total and perfect peace, despite my frustration.

    Understand, I am not expressing a feeling of “offense” when I say this; I simply am trying to explain how “forgive them” doesn’t apply to what I wrote.

  49. Ronan, I apologize for the threadjack. I know forgiveness is not the topic of this thread.

  50. I think the condition of my heart will be measured less by how many prayers I say for people, as important as that is, but more by how many prayers I answer for people – how many weak knees I strengthen – how many weary and broken hearts I comfort – and, just as importantly, how I allow others to do the same for me.

    Well said Ray- thank you. This gets back to Elder Bednar’s talk on clean hands and pure hearts. I suspect for most, including myself, the hands are much easier to tend to than the heart, and although both are necessary, one can have clean hands without a pure heart but not vice versa in my opinion. So it really is the state of our hearts that should concern us.

  51. I think that for the heart to contribute to the salvation of self and others it must be given to empathy and kindness great enough to counteract hurt, rage, and even hatred of ourselves and others for our/their despicable behavior.

    Although the capacity for empathy, kindness, and forgivenesss of the heart are limitless–as demonstrated by our Savior–tapping into that capacity seems to be the great challenge. Stepping into the shoes of others is very hard for me because I don’t want to see myself or be seen in them. Ego stands between me and my own outstretched hand.

  52. Ray,

    If my words cut the heart and soul out of your intended message, I deeply apologize for that was not my intent. I only wished to share my own experience as I felt it related to yours. In my mind, if it is appropriate to judge a person’s actions apart from judging the individual, why isn’t is also appropriate to ask the Lord to forgive those actions apart from the individual?

    I truly believe and understand that only God can absolve anyone from sin and that only He can manifest the healing peace that comes with both sincere repentance and forgiveness.

    It is clear that I misunderstood the intent of your original post, and not wanting to do the same thing again, I would ask you to clarify something from your response to mine that confuses me. You stated “I have absolutely NO right whatsoever to feel like I can forgive others who have not hurt me”. I read that to mean that because the actions of the people you outlined are not directed towards you personally (but rather to those in Africa or the poor and needy etc.)that it is not your place to forgive them etc. Am I with you that far?

    If I’m not, I’ll eagerly await further clarity.

    If I am, then permit me to explain why your affirmative answer would cause my confusion. If only those whose lives are directly affected by the lack of action on the part of your neighbors are the only ones with the absolute right to forgive them, why then are they not also the only people who have the right to be bothered and/or frustrated by those actions as well?

    I hope you will forgive me for my density here, but then again, I also don’t comprehend being completely and totally at peace while frustrated either! *grin* I have much to learn.

  53. Abish: “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those *who trespass against us*.”

    God has the power to forgive all specifically because all have sinned against Him. All have rejected Him in some way. All have done things that go directly against His righteous commands.

    I, on the other hand, have never met millions of people who have harmed God and others. In many cases, I have no idea whatsoever what they did – and in almost all cases, I don’t understand why they did it. Since I have no idea who they are, what they did and why they did it – and since in no way did they “sin against me” per se, I cannot “forgive” them. In these cases, the mere act of presuming to judge them enough to assert that they need forgiveness is presumptuous at best and arrogant at worst.

    Further, if someone abuses children that I do not know (and whose family I do not know), the only pain I feel is a very generic sorrow for the naturalness and depravity of humanity. It is not “personal” in any real way. It is quite easy for me to say blithely that I “forgive” that child molester, but that ease also tends to minimize the deeply painful reality of the Hell that is felt by those children and their immediate family. Such an “easy forgiveness” often makes people judge those who cannot offer true forgiveness so easily – often leading to exhortations to forgive from those who have never felt such searing pain and simply don’t understand how brutally difficult such forgiveness can be. My “forgiving” Hitler for killing Jews and Gypsies is completely painless; it simply is not in the same universe of emotional difficulty as Corrie ten Boom’s discovery of forgiveness chronicled in “The Hiding Place.” They are completely different things.

    I am at peace with myself and with others specifically because I accept that the Atonement frees me from having to judge others. I am free to be frustrated by their attitudes and actions, and even attempt to correct those actions and attitudes when appropriate, while holding firmly to the belief that they ultimately have no bearing on my own eternal end. That comes from the joy I gain from my faith even as my life is full of pain and difficulty and stress and concern. I feel all of these things, but I simultaneously am at peace.

    It’s late, and this is way too long already. I hope it made sense – at least more than my first answer.

    Ronan, let me know tomorrow (later today) if you want this to stop on this thread.

  54. I have no doubt of how well-meaning and earnest Elder Wirthlin and the others are. I also don’t disagree that most of our teaching of the gospel should be similarly emotionally wrought in order to be uplifting, inspirational, and motivating to be better. However, that is ALL the Church wants us to hear. The truth is suppressed (by God also) because it is not as faith-promoting–though I often wonder if the GAs even know “the truth.”

    In this specific instance, Christ won’t need to ask us. The nature and degree of our righteousness (developed by such selflessness) will be (probably totally) transparent. There is no “judgment bar.” That, as most everything, is an allegory.

  55. Doug Hudson says:

    Ray, I find your comment about Hitler fascinating. You say it would be “painless” for you to forgive him. Perhaps it is simply that we are using different definitions of forgiveness, but for my part (as someone not directly affected by the Nazis, though the entire world was indirectly affected), I don’t know if I could stand before Hitler and say, “I forgive you,” and mean it. It would be an enormous struggle: how does one forgive such monstrous evil? Do I even have the right, is it my place to forgive? And yet, Jesus says we must forgive. Now, granted, Hitler is dead, but then, don’t we need to forgive the dead as well as the living?

  56. I sometimes wonder if we don’t read this a bit too literally. There are many kinds of “prisons” that don’t all fit squarely in the justice system. To many who have lived long and honorable lives, a nursing home can feel like a prison, especially when their children don’t visit. There are some people who are imprisoned by their fears. Handicaps, both physical and mental, can sometimes limit people’s abilities to participate in life to the extent that their homes become prisons. Our ward includes military family housing, and to those who are left behind while a family member (usually the husband) is on a long deployment can feel imprisoned.

  57. Doug, My maternal grandmother was a Hudson – but I digress.

    “Do I even have the right, is it my place to forgive [Hitler]?” If by “forgive” you mean letting Jesus be the judge (letting go of the natural tendency to condemn without perfect understanding), then I can’t argue with that. My point simply is that such an act is FAR different – really and truly a completely different action – than letting go of such judgment while still suffering great pain and anguish and loss and humiliation.

    Perhaps (probably) it is just semantics, but I have seen too much judging of those who struggle to forgive after having been devastated in innocence – judging by those who barely were affected by the devastation – to think that what I face in “forgiving” Hitler is anything compared to what Holocaust survivers face(d). In comparison, my “forgiveness” is as nothing – so easy as to not qualify as forgiveness *for me*. For that reason, I personally draw a distinction between forgiving those who trepass against me and simply not judging those who have trepassed against others.

  58. Doug Hudson says:

    Ray,

    I see your point now, and I agree; it is not my place, or anyone’s place, to tell someone else when or how they should forgive someone’s trepasses. I think it was semantics–discussing forgiveness is a tricky business. (After all, what exactly is forgiveness?)

  59. Ray-

    Thanks for clarifying! Makes more sense now.

    CS Eric- you read my mind about “prisons”. Nicely done.

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