Your Monday poll #6

Comments

  1. Steve Evans says:

    No option for “no idea”? I can’t choose any of these.

  2. Steve,

    I know no-one knows, but if I had to guess

    Add “with a gun to my kids’ heads” after this. Then choose. Go on, be wild. Speculate!

  3. Steve Evans says:

    I see.

  4. In 1982 Bro. McConkie said the Second Coming of Christ would not take place during his lifetime, nor the lifetime of his children, and maybe not during the lifetime of his grandchildren. He said there was too much to be done first. I don’t know… What are the sportsbook people in Vegas saying?

  5. I said “next 20 years”. All it takes is for Iran to do something to start a full scale war in the middle east. Then all the countries will try form alliances basically along isreal/non-israel lines. Pretty soon, all the nations of the world will lay siege to Isreal and that will usher in the second coming. By the way, I am a Glenn Beck hatemonger.

  6. It’s never meant to actually come, but to create the effect of getting people to prepare for it.

  7. I think Trevor might be on to something.

  8. Aaron Brown says:

    The 2nd Coming has already occurred. I’ve got a document by Hugh Nibley that says so (4/6/93 to be precise). But if you’re asking about the Third Coming, that’s different.

    Aaron B

  9. Nick Literski says:

    #4, Bruce R. McConkie also said (following the lead of Brigham Young) that persons of African descent would not receive the LDS priesthood until the millennium. Fortunately, he was man enough to admit he was wrong on that prediction when Spencer W. Kimball announced otherwise.

  10. Fletcher,

    All it takes is for Iran to do something to start a full scale war in the middle east.

    Not Iran.

    And not even war in the Middle East.

    One particular prophecy keeps, it seems, being relegated to the sideline, but is so key to the last days. The Two Prophets are key!

  11. As a teenager, the millennium idea was pretty rampant amongst people I knew (late 60’s – early 70’s) but as we got closer to 2001, I realized how much was still left to do, so I am pretty soft on this. Part of me says way out there, but when I used to teach gospel doctrine, we’d try to lay out how quickly most of the events could transpire. I’d then lay on the “as a thief in the night” factor, and came up with anything from a few months to a few years on the short end. But then someone would always point out that the wise man is prepared and will not be surprised idea from the same NT scripture, and say that if we are surprised, we must not be living right. I would always respond and say, “then please be sure and give me a call”.

    At this point, I just don’t know. My best guess is 50 years out, but that’s so I don’t have nightmares about it.

  12. apropos Trevor and Costanza, even the 1830s Mormons (Cowdery at a minimum) recognized that the Second Coming represents on a global scale what happens to each of us when we die. So the “second coming” happens many times every day and once to each of us.

  13. And then there’s the whole Dome of the Rock thing that has to be sorted out. I suppose if Israel bulldozed it like many there would like, that would precipitate a lot of things happening very quickly.

  14. Steve Evans says:

    test

  15. Yeah, I gotta go with the “No Idea” statement. Although, one of the Elders who taught my husband told us it would be within 20 years.

    When I was younger, the idea that the Mayan calendar ends in 2012 made me nervous.

  16. Kevin Barney says:

    According to the bishop of my youth, it will certainly happen during my lifetime.

    I’m not inclined to believe him.

  17. Kevin Barney says:

    Of course, that was back in the 70s when everyone was sure it would happen in 2000, because God’s got a thing for nice, round numbers.

  18. 6 – so God lied to us to get us to act http://scriptures.lds.org/tg/j/64 better?

  19. I’m with Fletcher–I hate Glenn Beck too!

    As to the timing of the Second Coming, speculation on that is at least as productive as the thread that Frank McIntyre started this morning on some other blog.

  20. Steve Evans says:

    I don’t know how you can’t believe in the 2nd coming of Christ and still be a Christian.

  21. Steve Evans says:

    Just sayin’.

  22. I admit, I only voted so I could see what everyone else had said. I picked 50-100 years so I could remain a Christian (see comment #20) and yet not feel too much pressure.

  23. There’s a big difference between believing in the Second Coming and being a Millenialist. The latter grouping has been consistently wrong for the last 2000 years; the former makes the SC so vague and far-off that it has little meaning. You can easily be a Christian and believe in the Second Coming without actually believing in it, if you see what I mean.

    Which way is the LDS church headed?

  24. Nick Literski says:

    I don’t know how you can’t believe in the 2nd coming of Christ and still be a Christian.

    Okay, Steve. Now you’re officially disqualified from complaining when “christians” proclaim that they don’t know how LDS can “not believe in ____” or “can believe in ______” and still be “christian.” ;-)

  25. It seems to me that Christ’s import was in events/ideas surrounding the first coming.

    I don’t believe in a second coming, and I’m both Christian and Mormon. Steve, why do you think it’s so important to believe in a 2d coming?

    Also Steve, I don’t if you meant to sound so papal and dismissive, but your comment reminds me of how often the bloggernacle comes across as less open to religious discussions than the average foyer discussion at my ward on Sunday.

  26. Steve Evans says:

    Nick, the second coming of Jesus is RIGHT THERE in the scriptures. It’s completely obvious. Besides, I rarely complain at those types of discussions.

    Foyer, it was an honest question on my part. I do not know how one can accept the accounts of Christ and not see the 2nd coming as part and parcel with it. I don’t view it as “important,” but I view it as something very basic. I have no desire nor need to compete with the discussions in your ward foyer.

  27. I, along with Steve, can’t see how y’all can ignore the plethora of scriptures dealing with Christ’s second coming. It seems pretty obvious with my readings of both the old and new testaments, not to mention the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price, that the idea of Christ returning is going to happen. Now, our ideas of how that will come about and what it will be like are certainly open to criticism and debate.

  28. Nick Literski says:

    Nick, the second coming of Jesus is RIGHT THERE in the scriptures. It’s completely obvious.

    Which is precisely what any garden-variety “christian” would say about his or her doctrinal claims, when they oppose LDS doctrine. All sorts of things are “completely obvious” in the Bible, depending on who’s reading.

    Besides, I rarely complain at those types of discussions.

    Good for you. In the meantime though, I’m really tempted to say I don’t know how you can not get all worked up over “christian” accusations that LDS aren’t “christian,” and still be modern LDS. ;-)

  29. Steve Evans says:

    Nick, touche on your last sentence.

    I’d argue that the 2nd Coming is not really ambiguous, unlike much of the claims that both Mormons and non-Mormons lob at each other. We pretty much all agree when it comes to the fact of the 2nd coming. Of course, what it really MEANS is undecided, but as a notion it can’t be disputed. In other words, it’s a vessel whose meaning could be unclear, but it’s still there nonetheless.

  30. Nick Literski says:

    Ahhhh….now, I was reading you as referring to a literal, “in the flesh” visitation of the same being who retired from carpentry to become a rabbi, and was subsequently worshipped within christianity. As you note, there are interpretations of the “second coming” all over the map, be it metaphorical, reincarnation, literal appearance, etc. (Not being LDS or any other variety of christian, I don’t really have a dog in that race.)

    I do hope you know that my last sentence in #28 was good-natured ribbing. :-)

  31. Based on my patriarchal blessing, I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime, so I can’t vote for the next 20 years. On the other hand, I’m with Tracy M on the Mayan calendar thing. What is up with that?

  32. Yesterday in Sunday school, we were reading Ephesians, the verses regarding the dispensation of the fullness of times, in particular. My wife leaned over and remarked, “It seems from the text like Paul thought that he was living in the dispensation of the fullness of times.”

    Yep.

  33. Steve,

    I doubt a lot of things. I hope Jesus is a coming back but I dont know. It doesnt change how I live my life whether he comes today or never. I like to live by Christ’s teachings so I figure Im generally Christian. Im certainly mormon by association.

  34. StillConfused says:

    Maybe it already happened and we were too busy watching reality shows on TV.

  35. Re: the Mayan Calendar, it does not really “end” in 2012. What people mean by that is that the highly complicated, very long dating method used by the Mayans “rolls” on the Winter Solstice, 2012. It’s a lot like your car odometer flipping from 99,999 to 100,000 miles. There’s a lot of disagreement as to how much significance the Mayans placed on this date “rolling.” It may well mean absolutely nothing; no more than when our calendar rolled from 1999 to 2000. It’s particularly interesting because they were able to match up their calendar with the solstice so far out, but that probably just speaks to their advanced astrology, not to some prophetic knowledge of the state of the world in 2012.

    Of course, I’ll have my 72-hour kit handy just in case. ;)

  36. Adam Greenwood says:

    Oswald Spengler says the antiChrist appears around 2100 and is seceded by the reign of universal peace. Of course he meant it in a secular way, but lets ignore that, shall we?

    German cranks are the best source of knowledge around, provided you read them figuratively. (Grin).

  37. Steve Evans says:

    That’s my approach to Luther.

  38. I didn’t see “I don’t give a large mouse-like creature’s hind quarters” as an option. I simply don’t care.

  39. To revisit the original subject of the poll, with all the generations that have been *certain* that they were living on the cusp of the Second Coming, it seems foolish for anyone to think that *this time* it’s a sure thing. As greenfrog wisely noted, Paul himself apparently believed Christ’s return was imminent. In fact, the lack of a quick return caused many problems for the churches he founded. There’s a good argument to be made that Christ himself believed the Kingdom of God was quite literally at hand! If such a highly regarded and presumably reliable figure such as St. Paul could get it so wrong, I wouldn’t bank on any modern prophet’s assertion that This Time It’s For Real.

  40. Matt Thurston says:

    With this one, I’m really not a believer… although if anyone from world history could “come again,” I can’t think of another person I’d rather nominate.

    “All it takes is for Iran to do something to start a full scale war in the middle east.”

    Mormon leaders thought the Civil War was a precursor to the Second Coming. It’s not fair to say Mormon leaders “celebrated” the Civil War, but it was definitely accepted as evidence of the “winding up scene”… and as such, news of the devastation back east must have been received with some mixture of sadness and pleasure.

    I’m sure both WW1 and WW2 were used as fodder over the pulpit as evidence or impetus for the Second Coming for Mormons of those generations. The same could be said about the Cold War. In short, every major war or near war will be used as evidence for the Second Coming.

    Open-ended prophesies can be bent to satisfy any set of criteria, not unlike fortune cookies and horoscopes.

    “…it will certainly happen during my lifetime…”

    Yeah, this one has been heard by every generation of Mormons since the 1830s, and will be probably be heard by every future generation of Mormons, at least until Christ returns or some natural or man-made disaster ends it all. One could write off such talk to overzealous seminary teachers or missionaries, but it’s the patriarchal blessings testifying as much that make me cringe.

  41. I gotta side with Steve on this one. There’s something about turning the second coming into a figurative event that also impinges upon the mortal ministry and atonement of Christ. He was real the first time, and the second coming will be real, too.

    That’s the way I see it.

    As for when? Who knows? I think most folks want to believe that they’re special, and are the final chosen generation that will usher in The Big Event. I have heard lots of second-hand accounts of patriarchal blessings that make predictions, but I haven’t seen any of those. Mine talks about establishing Zion, but doesn’t make it clear whether the establishment will be completed while I’m here to see it. And since we’re establishing Zion all the time (and I promised to do so in the temple) I guess I’m seeing my patriarchal blessings fulfilled in that regard.

    But that leads to my biggest emotional reservation against a figurative second coming: the idea of a literal Zion, world peace and universal goodness, righteousness and prosperity, hearts knit together in unity — that’s a dream I refuse to relinquish.

  42. And what about Joseph Smith’s view of the Book of Revelation? Virtually everything people think they know about the Second Coming comes straight from Revelation, but as I understand it Joseph didn’t place Revelation with the rest of the NT, correct?

    Meanwhile, my wife thinks I’m insane because I’ve been perusing a book about Revelation by one of the co-authors of that abominable “Left Behind” series. Talk about over-analyzing a text…wow. (Of course, I number among those who think that Revelation is simply a coded text denouncing Nero Caesar, and thus any actual prophecy in the text has long since been fulfilled.)

  43. AnonymousDreamer says:

    I only share this story in public because I am hiding behind a pseudonym. Not because I am ashamed or embarrassed, and not necessarily because I think people would make fun of me, but only because I regard it as a very sacred experience. I guess somehow I feel as though I am not violating its sacredness by not directly associating my name with it. Perhaps that is a silly rationale. Still, I’ve decided to share it here because I think it is relevant to the discussion. Not that my experience constitutes definitive “proof” of anything. Even I recognize that it does not. In fact, as I responded to the poll questions, I even found myself filled with doubt — uncertain what I really believe in terms of the proximity of the Second Coming. Nevertheless, I will proceed with the account of my experience, which occurred over 28 years ago during the week before I entered the MTC.

    It is the brief account of a dream I was given as a fresh-faced 19-year-old. I say I was “given” this dream because it is of a type of dream I have only had on very rare occasions, and strangely — they have always come right before the break of dawn. These particular dreams consist of very clear and understandable images, in vivid colors, and seem to be shown to my mind on a screen like the ones in an IMAX theater. In short, these are very unique dreams in comparison to any other dreams I have ever had. I have only had eight of these kinds of dreams in my life, and the one I will describe was the first. It should also be noted that I had grown up in an inactive family, I had not gone to seminary, and the only scripture I had read prior to this experience was the Book of Mormon, which I had just barely completed several weeks previous to the dream.

    The dream opened with me standing on the roof of a building. It was early evening, just after dusk. I was in a city unlike any I had ever set foot in, but which I have since come to identify with cities around the Mediterranean Sea. The streets were narrow and the buildings were clustered tightly. It was a city built on and around several hills, for I could discern as much in looking out upon it. I was facing to the southeast, for the moon had just begun to rise over the horizon on my left, well within the scope of my peripheral vision. I also perceived that I was much older, probably in my seventies or so.

    As the moon reached a point where the entire orb had risen above the line of the horizon and the buildings of the city, I turned to face it. Magnified by the atmosphere, it appeared very large above the horizon.

    Just at this moment, at the top pole of the globe, what appeared to be blood began to flow down the face of the moon. I don’t mean just a red tint or haze, or anything of the sort. I mean blood. It was the peculiar vivid scarlet hue that is unique to fresh blood. It was thick and liquid. It flowed down from the top pole of the moon until it filled the entire globe, at which point the globe lost cohesion and the entire mass flowed down the face of the night sky and disappeared. The moon was gone. It had turned into blood and flowed down the sky.

    Then I awakened.

    A few days later I sat somewhat stunned as I read D&C 29 for the first time:

    14 But, behold, I say unto you that before this great day shall come the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall be turned into blood …

    I had a faint recollection of having heard that the moon would turn red before the second coming, but this was the first time that I had actually read the phrase “the moon shall be turned into blood.”

    Well, I saw it happen in my dream. Take it for what it’s worth. Maybe it was a simple figment of my own imagination; a random combination of neurons in my brain that produced it all.

    But that’s not what I believe. I was there.

  44. S.P. Bailey says:

    No. 42:
    Any chance you will reveal the other seven dreams?

  45. I don’t know the day or the hour, but I’m pretty sure it’s going to happen on a Monday. And I don’t think it’s going to be this coming Monday.

  46. Christopher Smith says:

    >>I don’t know how you can’t believe in the 2nd coming of Christ and still be a Christian.

    Given that Jesus said it would be in his generation, I’d say it’s either preterism or bust on this one. “Bust” may actually be the more tenable of the two.

  47. Based on my patriarchal blessing, I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime, so I can’t vote for the next 20 years. On the other hand, I’m with Tracy M on the Mayan calendar thing. What is up with that?

    Really? My mother-in-laws patriarchal blessing says her children would never reach marriage age because of the second coming, but would be sealed to partners in heaven.

    Notice I said mother-in-law?

    It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the Second Coming wasn’t a literal even that included the moon turning to blood and wars in Israel. I remember as a kid telling my mom that I probably wouldn’t have children because Christ would be returning. She showed me her grandmother’s diary where she had written the exact same thing. We may think it’s right around the corner, but Mormons thought the same thing 100 years ago, and Christians thought the same thing 2000 years ago.

  48. Floyd the Wonderdog says:

    I had an EQP who was sure that the 2nd Coming would occur when April 6th fell on a Sunday. He could never describe why he felt that way.

    Remember, “no MAN knoweth the hour or the day”, I bet the sisters are taught in Enrichment when it will be. That way we guys are still left in the dark.

  49. Haha, FLoyd. As a kid I always thought the second coming would fall on the day that April 6 would fall on Easter Sunday. Too much superstition in me, I guess. However, I do believe it’s coming. For real, not figuratively.

  50. Actually, when I was growing up, we used to have two sessions of stake conference on a Sunday, and the Sunday afternoon session was usually so poorly attended that the joke was that the second coming would be during the afternoon session of stake conference.

    Since we no longer have those, then maybe the answer is it’s never going to happen?

    In the same vein, it might happen on high council speaking Sunday.

  51. Only if you are speaking, kevinf.

  52. Forty-seven percent of readers of this blog actually believe Jesus will return to earth within the next 100 years? I suppose this not that far off from the US Christian population at large, but I still can’t quite get my mind around this–nearly half of you actually believe this? No metaphor, no “sure I believe it, but who knows when it will happen?” How can our country make sensible policy for our future, our children’s and our grandchildren’s future when half the population believe the world will essentially end in 100 years?

  53. Kevinf,
    I had a stake president who said the second coming would be a stake conference weekend that was also the opening weekend of the hunting season.

    Of course, he is also the same stake president who said one thing he liked about being sp was that he could go golfing on Sundays and nobody would know–everybody would just think he was attending meetings at another ward.

  54. Eric Russell says:

    So 15% of you don’t think Jesus is ever coming back, eh?

    I wonder what his final moments on earth were like, knowing that he would never return? I imagine he had a big feast with the apostles. Bread, fish and wine. He didn’t need to eat because he was resurrected, but if it’s your last night on earth, why not? I imagine that after the meal he got together with his apostles to pray. I bet he offered the prayer. Afterwards, they all slowly stand up. Jesus shakes hands with each of the apostles and then heads towards the door. There’s sort of an awkward silence for a moment. He’s going for good this time, they think, and never coming back. Jesus walks out the door and then turns to address them one last time. He says, “So long, and thanks for all the fish!”

  55. Patricia Lahtinen says:

    What about the Rapture? My little brother (age 24) is stationed in Kansas. Last week there were big rainstorms there and in OK. They were all sent home at noon to secure their homes, as the sky was as dark as night. He called my mother to ask her, “What’s this Rapture-thing everyone here is talking about?” It’s based in Revelations too, isn’t it? Like the two prophets? Why do we Mormons talk about one but not the other?

    I love how one sister in our ward, culturally Mormon through and through, talks about imagining how the small and good work we do now lays the foundation for greater work in the future–like eight or nine HUNDRED years from now!

    I’m with you, terceiro (#41). I have hope in a literal 2nd Coming.

    smb (#12), those are new ideas for me. A 2nd Coming for each of us, happening many times each day… Hmmmm…

    Finally, revaler (#52), I am as alarmed as you. The short-sightedness of U.S. foreign and domestic policies not being based on what is best for the 7th Generation is so frightening. We are our government, and if most of us revel in war and believe that the world won’t be around for much longer, what hope is there? Where is the impetus to make the massive and unified changes to live more responsibly and respectfully?
    -trish

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 8,625 other followers