Comments on: Jane Manning James in the Woman’s Exponent http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/ A Mormon Blog Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:02:51 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: J. Stapley http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64552 J. Stapley Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:55:14 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64552 David, I don't think we have to say one or the other. David, I don’t think we have to say one or the other.

]]> By: David Littlefield http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64551 David Littlefield Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:33:30 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64551 So would you’ll say that the church moved away from a good practice (non-missionary tongues, glossolalia) and should consider reversing this trend? Or, would you say the church has stripped away some excessive of it early member’s prior religious experiences, and the flavor of LDS worship is closer to where is should be? So would you’ll say that the church moved away from a good practice (non-missionary tongues, glossolalia) and should consider reversing this trend? Or, would you say the church has stripped away some excessive of it early member’s prior religious experiences, and the flavor of LDS worship is closer to where is should be?

]]> By: Sam MB http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64543 Sam MB Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:35:36 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64543 Queue ED Queue ED

]]> By: J. Stapley http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64529 J. Stapley Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:00:16 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64529 Let's add it to the queue! Let’s add it to the queue!

]]> By: Sam MB http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64530 Sam MB Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:27:36 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64530 J, I think the question has to do with what is meant by "spoke in tongues" when you see it in the accounts. I think there's a continuum from speaking to singing these melodious syllables, and it would be hard to choose where to draw the line. That said, my distinction is based on such a line, and I will confess I don't follow the Utah period closely. We should do a better account of glossolalia. The current two familiar papers are pretty dated now, and I don't find them all that insightful (still part of the "omigosh, the twentieth century is different from the nineteenth-century" phase of Mormon studies). J, I think the question has to do with what is meant by “spoke in tongues” when you see it in the accounts. I think there’s a continuum from speaking to singing these melodious syllables, and it would be hard to choose where to draw the line. That said, my distinction is based on such a line, and I will confess I don’t follow the Utah period closely. We should do a better account of glossolalia. The current two familiar papers are pretty dated now, and I don’t find them all that insightful (still part of the “omigosh, the twentieth century is different from the nineteenth-century” phase of Mormon studies).

]]> By: J. Stapley http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64531 J. Stapley Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:16:13 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64531 Sam, your analysis is spot-on, I think. The only place where I would disagree is on the persistence of singing. There were certain individuals (e.g., Elizabeth Whitney) that were prolific singer-glossolaliacs. The vast majority of late nineteenth and twentieth century accounts with which I am familiar, however, are not musical in nature. Sam, your analysis is spot-on, I think. The only place where I would disagree is on the persistence of singing. There were certain individuals (e.g., Elizabeth Whitney) that were prolific singer-glossolaliacs. The vast majority of late nineteenth and twentieth century accounts with which I am familiar, however, are not musical in nature.

]]> By: Sam MB http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64532 Sam MB Sat, 20 Oct 2007 16:49:01 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64532 fyi: xenoglossia: miraculously speaking a known foreign language glossolalia: miraculously speaking an unknown language or unintelligible syllables charismata: "spiritual gifts" (the greek plural of charisma, "grace") fyi:
xenoglossia: miraculously speaking a known foreign language
glossolalia: miraculously speaking an unknown language or unintelligible syllables
charismata: “spiritual gifts” (the greek plural of charisma, “grace”)

]]> By: Sam MB http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64533 Sam MB Sat, 20 Oct 2007 16:47:29 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64533 Mike, it's a complex history because of some tensions with the Rigdonite Baptists who formed the nucleus of the Kirtland church. They were full-on charismatic revivalists, and Smith and others felt they had gone too far, urging more restraint and even recommending xenoglossia over glossolalia (the current stance and the historic stance among more respectable Protestants), but by 1836, pressure had been mounting for charismata (there are fascinating reports by Phelps and others ca 1834-5 talking about the fact that they were waiting to receive the fuller gifts, which at the time were limited to much-disputed healings and (perhaps) resurrections and scattered glossolalia. By 1836, tongues had returned as evidence of the endowment of charismata. Incredibly widespread tongue-speaking seems to have been mostly the first two decades of the church, after which it settled into a more familiar expression of spiritual and communal experience, then slowly fizzled out as the LDS entered the twentieth century. Particular figures, "Mother" Whitney, and Zina Huntington, were well-known conservators of the art/gift. By the latter period it's my (unsubstantiated) impression that most of it came in the form of singing unintelligible but beautiful hymns (imagine a spiritual version of scat singing). It's worth noting that by then the Holiness sects of evangelicalism had begun to appropriate glossolalia in earnest, and I wonder whether disambiguation from Pentecostals of Azusa Street fame may have had some influence, beyond just the Americanization/accommodation detailed by Tom Alexander. Stapes: agreed, the use of ancient or "pure" language integrates well into a notion of endowment as incorporating ecstatic language. Perhaps for modern LDS a version of glossolalia could be brushes with the ineffable glory of God, those moments of great spiritual awareness that tax and overload human language. Even in hymn singing today we have those moments when music touches us beyond the lyrics themselves. Margaret: thanks for the notes on Jane. I believe that her place in heaven is vastly more secure than mine and hope that the wounds inflicted by so many of us can be healed, both in her and in us. Mike, it’s a complex history because of some tensions with the Rigdonite Baptists who formed the nucleus of the Kirtland church. They were full-on charismatic revivalists, and Smith and others felt they had gone too far, urging more restraint and even recommending xenoglossia over glossolalia (the current stance and the historic stance among more respectable Protestants), but by 1836, pressure had been mounting for charismata (there are fascinating reports by Phelps and others ca 1834-5 talking about the fact that they were waiting to receive the fuller gifts, which at the time were limited to much-disputed healings and (perhaps) resurrections and scattered glossolalia. By 1836, tongues had returned as evidence of the endowment of charismata. Incredibly widespread tongue-speaking seems to have been mostly the first two decades of the church, after which it settled into a more familiar expression of spiritual and communal experience, then slowly fizzled out as the LDS entered the twentieth century. Particular figures, “Mother” Whitney, and Zina Huntington, were well-known conservators of the art/gift. By the latter period it’s my (unsubstantiated) impression that most of it came in the form of singing unintelligible but beautiful hymns (imagine a spiritual version of scat singing).

It’s worth noting that by then the Holiness sects of evangelicalism had begun to appropriate glossolalia in earnest, and I wonder whether disambiguation from Pentecostals of Azusa Street fame may have had some influence, beyond just the Americanization/accommodation detailed by Tom Alexander.

Stapes: agreed, the use of ancient or “pure” language integrates well into a notion of endowment as incorporating ecstatic language.

Perhaps for modern LDS a version of glossolalia could be brushes with the ineffable glory of God, those moments of great spiritual awareness that tax and overload human language. Even in hymn singing today we have those moments when music touches us beyond the lyrics themselves.

Margaret: thanks for the notes on Jane. I believe that her place in heaven is vastly more secure than mine and hope that the wounds inflicted by so many of us can be healed, both in her and in us.

]]> By: Margaret Young http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64534 Margaret Young Sat, 20 Oct 2007 16:25:52 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64534 Sam--I've met Quincy, who is wonderful. Darius and I took her to the Jane James monument and had a great time. I think the observation she makes about Mormons using Jane to bridge the racial difficulties of our past is fascinating. I think she's right. Jane was briefly portrayed in _Legacy_ (though she wouldn't actually have been in Nauvoo during the time depicted) singing in a choir. Of course, she gets much fuller treatment in the new Joseph Smith movie. Interestingly, because she has been spoken of so much, people assume that she has a large Mormon posterity. Somebody asked me if they could interview one of Jane's descendants to get their testimony. I conveyed the message to one of her great great grandsons, who thought it laughable. His response was something like, "Do they think we're still Mormon? Have they heard of something called equality?" And do note that though Jane was sealed as a servant to JS (Bathsheba Smith acting as proxy), Jane herself continued to petition for her endowment. Her petitions were duly noted, usually with words like, "Jane James, not being content..." Few people know the whole story of Jane James, and whenever there's new information, such as what Jonathan has supplied here, it's very exciting. Sam–I’ve met Quincy, who is wonderful. Darius and I took her to the Jane James monument and had a great time. I think the observation she makes about Mormons using Jane to bridge the racial difficulties of our past is fascinating. I think she’s right.

Jane was briefly portrayed in _Legacy_ (though she wouldn’t actually have been in Nauvoo during the time depicted) singing in a choir. Of course, she gets much fuller treatment in the new Joseph Smith movie. Interestingly, because she has been spoken of so much, people assume that she has a large Mormon posterity. Somebody asked me if they could interview one of Jane’s descendants to get their testimony. I conveyed the message to one of her great great grandsons, who thought it laughable. His response was something like, “Do they think we’re still Mormon? Have they heard of something called equality?”

And do note that though Jane was sealed as a servant to JS (Bathsheba Smith acting as proxy), Jane herself continued to petition for her endowment. Her petitions were duly noted, usually with words like, “Jane James, not being content…”

Few people know the whole story of Jane James, and whenever there’s new information, such as what Jonathan has supplied here, it’s very exciting.

]]> By: J. Stapley http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/19/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64535 J. Stapley Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:58:58 +0000 http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/jane-manning-james-in-the-womans-exponent/#comment-64535 Sam, that is an interesting point about the endowment...it reminds me of Joseph's occasional formalizations of Adamic and his insistence on giving the saints a way to get answers from God. Joseph is a bit complicated when it comes to tongue-speaking and perhaps this is a good way to view his interaction with it. You are also right in #12 about her interesting adoption. This is one of those things that is to hard for me to talk about in person. I'll look forward to that Newell paper. I also agree with your assessment of the nutraceutical industry. MikeinWeHo, the last public (e.g., sacrament meeting) accounts that I have seen are in the 1930's, though by that time it wasn't common like it had previously been. Sam, that is an interesting point about the endowment…it reminds me of Joseph’s occasional formalizations of Adamic and his insistence on giving the saints a way to get answers from God. Joseph is a bit complicated when it comes to tongue-speaking and perhaps this is a good way to view his interaction with it.

You are also right in #12 about her interesting adoption. This is one of those things that is to hard for me to talk about in person. I’ll look forward to that Newell paper. I also agree with your assessment of the nutraceutical industry.

MikeinWeHo, the last public (e.g., sacrament meeting) accounts that I have seen are in the 1930’s, though by that time it wasn’t common like it had previously been.

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