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	<title>Comments on: Tithes, Taxes and Progressivity</title>
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	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: MGL</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/19/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69593</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MGL]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69593</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[IMHO, tithing would be much less regressive if the church would clarify that we pay 10% of our &quot;increase&quot; rather than &quot;income&quot; or &quot;gross&quot;. If it were 10% of any increase in net worth instead of 10% of salary, a poor person who receives a salary of $20,000 per year, rents his house and has an income that falls short of meeting basic living expenses, and is deeper in debt at the end of the year than at the first may owe no tithing as there would be no increase in net worth.  On the other hand, the rich person who owns a company throwing off $1 million profit (from which he  draws a salary of $100,000 and pays $10,000 in tithing) and who has a house that appreciated $200,000 this year, would owe much more than the $10,000 he plays under a &quot;salary-based&quot; tithing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMHO, tithing would be much less regressive if the church would clarify that we pay 10% of our &#8220;increase&#8221; rather than &#8220;income&#8221; or &#8220;gross&#8221;. If it were 10% of any increase in net worth instead of 10% of salary, a poor person who receives a salary of $20,000 per year, rents his house and has an income that falls short of meeting basic living expenses, and is deeper in debt at the end of the year than at the first may owe no tithing as there would be no increase in net worth.  On the other hand, the rich person who owns a company throwing off $1 million profit (from which he  draws a salary of $100,000 and pays $10,000 in tithing) and who has a house that appreciated $200,000 this year, would owe much more than the $10,000 he plays under a &#8220;salary-based&#8221; tithing.</p>
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		<title>By: foxjones</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/19/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69592</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foxjones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Now if I was Prophet, (which I am not in case anyone was wondering..jk)...I would put the highest taxes...I mean tithing on the wealthy members of the church...I would reduce the tithing for the poor to a lower percent.  Of course to be good at this I would need to know with help of our scholary economists what would be a fair rate for all.  However since I am not an expert and I have been given complete power in the matter (this is fun)...I say the wealthy get tithed 3 times the amount for the poor church members.  You can call me Elder Robin E. Hood, &quot;tithe the rich for the sake of the poor.&quot;  Maybe we can start an extra fund for me, personally, since I am poor.  Anybody want to help me? jk :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now if I was Prophet, (which I am not in case anyone was wondering..jk)&#8230;I would put the highest taxes&#8230;I mean tithing on the wealthy members of the church&#8230;I would reduce the tithing for the poor to a lower percent.  Of course to be good at this I would need to know with help of our scholary economists what would be a fair rate for all.  However since I am not an expert and I have been given complete power in the matter (this is fun)&#8230;I say the wealthy get tithed 3 times the amount for the poor church members.  You can call me Elder Robin E. Hood, &#8220;tithe the rich for the sake of the poor.&#8221;  Maybe we can start an extra fund for me, personally, since I am poor.  Anybody want to help me? jk :)</p>
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		<title>By: Velikiye Kniaz</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/19/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69591</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Velikiye Kniaz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 23:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE: The Russian State Flat Tax

   The Russians, like all other human beings do not like paying taxes, especially those old enough to have lived through the &quot;Soviet&quot; era. When capitalism started once again in Russia everything was done to hide or &#039;shelter&#039; was we call it all taxable income. Russians easily became drunk with so much disposable income and that begat some very irrational decision making. As a Russian friend of mine said, &quot;Everyone wants to drive a BMW tomorrow!&quot; Pyramid schemes grew like mushrooms in Russian forests. Another (younger) friend of mine invested his life savings, $3,800, in such a scheme despite my lengthy conversation with him against this &#039;surefire investment&#039;. He wanted to drive a BMW tomorrow also. The &quot;oligarchs&quot;, former Communist apparachiks who &#039;bought&#039; industries and natural resources on less that mills to the dollar of the actual value, smuggled or transferred the billions upon billions the made out of Russia knowing full well that the day would come when they would be held accountable. The most egregious perpetrators now live abroad (outside) of Russia and usually sport an Israeli passport to insure that they won&#039;t be kidnapped by the FSB and brought back to Russia for trial. Today Russians still do all they can to avoid paying taxes. If you ever want to become a partner in a Russian business ask to see the books. If they really need your money the most likely answer will be, &quot;Which set?&quot; Russia&#039;s state tax system is an abysmal failure, that is why some of the oligarch&#039;s ill gotten assets were seized. The Russian state is funded by still state owned natural resources, oil, natural gas, minerals, etc. Whatever taxes are paid into the state coffers isn&#039;t the frosting on the cake, it couldn&#039;t even qualify as the cherry. Don&#039;t look to Russia for a solution to any tax quandrary, real or perceived.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: The Russian State Flat Tax</p>
<p>   The Russians, like all other human beings do not like paying taxes, especially those old enough to have lived through the &#8220;Soviet&#8221; era. When capitalism started once again in Russia everything was done to hide or &#8216;shelter&#8217; was we call it all taxable income. Russians easily became drunk with so much disposable income and that begat some very irrational decision making. As a Russian friend of mine said, &#8220;Everyone wants to drive a BMW tomorrow!&#8221; Pyramid schemes grew like mushrooms in Russian forests. Another (younger) friend of mine invested his life savings, $3,800, in such a scheme despite my lengthy conversation with him against this &#8216;surefire investment&#8217;. He wanted to drive a BMW tomorrow also. The &#8220;oligarchs&#8221;, former Communist apparachiks who &#8216;bought&#8217; industries and natural resources on less that mills to the dollar of the actual value, smuggled or transferred the billions upon billions the made out of Russia knowing full well that the day would come when they would be held accountable. The most egregious perpetrators now live abroad (outside) of Russia and usually sport an Israeli passport to insure that they won&#8217;t be kidnapped by the FSB and brought back to Russia for trial. Today Russians still do all they can to avoid paying taxes. If you ever want to become a partner in a Russian business ask to see the books. If they really need your money the most likely answer will be, &#8220;Which set?&#8221; Russia&#8217;s state tax system is an abysmal failure, that is why some of the oligarch&#8217;s ill gotten assets were seized. The Russian state is funded by still state owned natural resources, oil, natural gas, minerals, etc. Whatever taxes are paid into the state coffers isn&#8217;t the frosting on the cake, it couldn&#8217;t even qualify as the cherry. Don&#8217;t look to Russia for a solution to any tax quandrary, real or perceived.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/19/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69590</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69590</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Aaron,
Kind of.  Except that when people start talking tax policy, . . . it&#039;s kind of hard to explain, but it&#039;s like there is a &quot;correct&quot; way for taxes to be imposed.  The best we can hope for is that the taxes as enacted meet this semi-Platonic ideal.  Usually, we talk in terms of the imposition of the tax matching the economics of the transaction.

So yes, from an outside perspective, his observations are totally banal.  But within the heat of arguing about the one and only true and living way to tax an investment manager&#039;s receipt of carried interest, it served (or at least, tried to serve) to deflate the truth rhetoric and remind everyone that the tax treatment is what the legislature wants it to be, not what it is economically destined to be.

If you&#039;re interested, his column is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/business/yourmoney/29every.html?_r=1&amp;oref=slogin&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron,<br />
Kind of.  Except that when people start talking tax policy, . . . it&#8217;s kind of hard to explain, but it&#8217;s like there is a &#8220;correct&#8221; way for taxes to be imposed.  The best we can hope for is that the taxes as enacted meet this semi-Platonic ideal.  Usually, we talk in terms of the imposition of the tax matching the economics of the transaction.</p>
<p>So yes, from an outside perspective, his observations are totally banal.  But within the heat of arguing about the one and only true and living way to tax an investment manager&#8217;s receipt of carried interest, it served (or at least, tried to serve) to deflate the truth rhetoric and remind everyone that the tax treatment is what the legislature wants it to be, not what it is economically destined to be.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re interested, his column is <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/business/yourmoney/29every.html?_r=1&amp;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Brown</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/19/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69589</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron Brown]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Ben Stein had a great editorial in the New York Times three or four months ago in which he says, basically, so what if the tax code currently treats carried interest at the 15% rate? The tax code wasn’t written in stone by the finger of God, so change it if you don’t like it. Ultimately, that’s where I come down: currently, what they’re doing is perfectly legal. If we evaluate Vic Fleischer’s argument against the investment managers’ argument and decide Vic’s right, then we change the tax code, and that is that.&quot;

Umm, isn&#039;t this totally banal?  I mean, doesn&#039;t everyone agree with this, basically?  The debate focuses on this very issue:  Whether or not to change the tax code.  Is anyone actually arguing anything other than this?

Aaron B]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Ben Stein had a great editorial in the New York Times three or four months ago in which he says, basically, so what if the tax code currently treats carried interest at the 15% rate? The tax code wasn’t written in stone by the finger of God, so change it if you don’t like it. Ultimately, that’s where I come down: currently, what they’re doing is perfectly legal. If we evaluate Vic Fleischer’s argument against the investment managers’ argument and decide Vic’s right, then we change the tax code, and that is that.&#8221;</p>
<p>Umm, isn&#8217;t this totally banal?  I mean, doesn&#8217;t everyone agree with this, basically?  The debate focuses on this very issue:  Whether or not to change the tax code.  Is anyone actually arguing anything other than this?</p>
<p>Aaron B</p>
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		<title>By: Sam B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/19/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69588</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69588</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark,
I agree on both points; on the first, I&#039;m assuming the same incidence on both parties of the corporate tax, and just ignoring it for the sake of the comparison of Warren Buffett and his secretary.  I realize that&#039;s undoubtedly a horrible assumption, and, once I read the articles last lemming linked to, I may change it.  But for now, because I have no good information, I&#039;ll just ignore that piece of the puzzle.

On your second point, the failure of the tax code to take into account inflation is an imperfection of the system.  Given the low rate of inflation and the relatively decent appreciation of most capital assets, nobody in the last ten or twenty years has been paying tax while losing real dollars, but part of the capital gains tax is on inflation.  I don&#039;t know how I feel about that currently: while it seems unfair to pay taxes on gain that aren&#039;t economic gain, I&#039;m not sure if it&#039;s worth the complexity that would be added to the system to figure out how to remove the portion of cap gains attributable to inflation (although I recognize that other portions of the Code---not counting, of course, the AMT---are indexed for inflation).  (Of course, you could argue that part of the reason cap gains are taxed at a lower rate is as a crude fix for the inflation problem.  Really crude, I admit, but I&#039;m not sure if a surgical fix would be economically viable.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,<br />
I agree on both points; on the first, I&#8217;m assuming the same incidence on both parties of the corporate tax, and just ignoring it for the sake of the comparison of Warren Buffett and his secretary.  I realize that&#8217;s undoubtedly a horrible assumption, and, once I read the articles last lemming linked to, I may change it.  But for now, because I have no good information, I&#8217;ll just ignore that piece of the puzzle.</p>
<p>On your second point, the failure of the tax code to take into account inflation is an imperfection of the system.  Given the low rate of inflation and the relatively decent appreciation of most capital assets, nobody in the last ten or twenty years has been paying tax while losing real dollars, but part of the capital gains tax is on inflation.  I don&#8217;t know how I feel about that currently: while it seems unfair to pay taxes on gain that aren&#8217;t economic gain, I&#8217;m not sure if it&#8217;s worth the complexity that would be added to the system to figure out how to remove the portion of cap gains attributable to inflation (although I recognize that other portions of the Code&#8212;not counting, of course, the AMT&#8212;are indexed for inflation).  (Of course, you could argue that part of the reason cap gains are taxed at a lower rate is as a crude fix for the inflation problem.  Really crude, I admit, but I&#8217;m not sure if a surgical fix would be economically viable.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/19/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69587</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark D.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam B.,

I can see that the long run incidence question is complicated.  The problem is that a comparable analysis applies to the ordinary income tax obligation of salaried professionals as well.  So to make a fair comparison we would need to reduce both sides of the ledger.

One thing that hasn&#039;t been mentioned yet is that capital gains is currently a tax on nominal, not real gains, i.e. it is not inflation adjusted.  You can be losing money in real terms, and still be required to pay a tax on your &quot;gain&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam B.,</p>
<p>I can see that the long run incidence question is complicated.  The problem is that a comparable analysis applies to the ordinary income tax obligation of salaried professionals as well.  So to make a fair comparison we would need to reduce both sides of the ledger.</p>
<p>One thing that hasn&#8217;t been mentioned yet is that capital gains is currently a tax on nominal, not real gains, i.e. it is not inflation adjusted.  You can be losing money in real terms, and still be required to pay a tax on your &#8220;gain&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: AHLDuke</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/19/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69586</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AHLDuke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69586</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The whole point of your fellow ward members&#039; argument about the relative justice of tithing versus progressive taxation seems fallacious since tithing is only the second-best law anyway.  The Lord&#039;s law is actually 100% taxation (with refunds and exclusions of course).  In that sense it is also a &quot;flat&quot; system.  But the amount redistributed to each individual would be different, according to the needs of them and their families, so in that sense it is also progressive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole point of your fellow ward members&#8217; argument about the relative justice of tithing versus progressive taxation seems fallacious since tithing is only the second-best law anyway.  The Lord&#8217;s law is actually 100% taxation (with refunds and exclusions of course).  In that sense it is also a &#8220;flat&#8221; system.  But the amount redistributed to each individual would be different, according to the needs of them and their families, so in that sense it is also progressive.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/19/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69550</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark D,
I&#039;m a tax attorney, not an economist, so I can&#039;t do the math for you.  But, according to what I&#039;ve read, you&#039;re wrong that the corporate tax falls solely and squarely on shareholders.  The economists say it falls in some mixture on the three categories of people I (and zehill before me) mentioned.

Aaron,
There are a couple primary arguments that I&#039;m familiar with.  A favorite is that taxing investment managers at ordinary rates will prevent US funds from being competitive with offshore managers, and so will drive the PR and hedge fund practices offshore.  (Along with that argument is the argument that it will raise costs, which will ultimately be passed to investors, reducing the return on investment funds.)

I&#039;ve also heard the argument that the investment managers&#039; return is a legitimate risk-based return (usually, for those who don&#039;t know, investment managers for hedge and private equity funds get paid 20% annually of the gainst that the fund makes, with certain adjustments) and, for the same reason other risk-based returns are taxed at a lower rate than wage income, their return should be taxed at the advantageous rates.

I&#039;m sure there are other arguments out there, but these two seem to be the biggest ones.  Whether you find these argument convincing or not is, of course, an entirely seperate question.  Ben Stein had a great editorial in the New York Times three or four months ago in which he says, basically, so what if the tax code currently treats carried interest at the 15% rate?  The tax code wasn&#039;t written in stone by the finger of God, so change it if you don&#039;t like it.  Ultimately, that&#039;s where I come down: currently, what they&#039;re doing is perfectly legal.  If we evaluate Vic Fleischer&#039;s argument against the investment managers&#039; argument and decide Vic&#039;s right, then we change the tax code, and that is that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark D,<br />
I&#8217;m a tax attorney, not an economist, so I can&#8217;t do the math for you.  But, according to what I&#8217;ve read, you&#8217;re wrong that the corporate tax falls solely and squarely on shareholders.  The economists say it falls in some mixture on the three categories of people I (and zehill before me) mentioned.</p>
<p>Aaron,<br />
There are a couple primary arguments that I&#8217;m familiar with.  A favorite is that taxing investment managers at ordinary rates will prevent US funds from being competitive with offshore managers, and so will drive the PR and hedge fund practices offshore.  (Along with that argument is the argument that it will raise costs, which will ultimately be passed to investors, reducing the return on investment funds.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also heard the argument that the investment managers&#8217; return is a legitimate risk-based return (usually, for those who don&#8217;t know, investment managers for hedge and private equity funds get paid 20% annually of the gainst that the fund makes, with certain adjustments) and, for the same reason other risk-based returns are taxed at a lower rate than wage income, their return should be taxed at the advantageous rates.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure there are other arguments out there, but these two seem to be the biggest ones.  Whether you find these argument convincing or not is, of course, an entirely seperate question.  Ben Stein had a great editorial in the New York Times three or four months ago in which he says, basically, so what if the tax code currently treats carried interest at the 15% rate?  The tax code wasn&#8217;t written in stone by the finger of God, so change it if you don&#8217;t like it.  Ultimately, that&#8217;s where I come down: currently, what they&#8217;re doing is perfectly legal.  If we evaluate Vic Fleischer&#8217;s argument against the investment managers&#8217; argument and decide Vic&#8217;s right, then we change the tax code, and that is that.</p>
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		<title>By: Last Lemming</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/19/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69585</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Last Lemming]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/11/tithes-taxes-and-progressivity/#comment-69585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding the flat tax in Russia...

When private companies began to flourish in Russia, they had no experience with paying taxes. Furthermore, the state had no experience collecting taxes from companies it did not own.  The idea was to create a simple tax systen to make it easy for companies to comply with and for the state to enforce.  Had things proceeded apace, I would have expected more complexity to enter the tax system as both taxpayers and collectors became more sophisticated.

As it happened, companies that were generating huge tax liabilities (and allegedly not paying them) were simply confiscated by the state. So the Russian experience is not exactly a fair test.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the flat tax in Russia&#8230;</p>
<p>When private companies began to flourish in Russia, they had no experience with paying taxes. Furthermore, the state had no experience collecting taxes from companies it did not own.  The idea was to create a simple tax systen to make it easy for companies to comply with and for the state to enforce.  Had things proceeded apace, I would have expected more complexity to enter the tax system as both taxpayers and collectors became more sophisticated.</p>
<p>As it happened, companies that were generating huge tax liabilities (and allegedly not paying them) were simply confiscated by the state. So the Russian experience is not exactly a fair test.</p>
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