Also, I HAVE provided an explanation – that God allows us (even prophets) to exercise our agency in ways of which He does not approve. As to prophets not leading the Church astray, I agree that it won’t happen – and I believe that they did not do so in this case. I don’t think any member will end up in Hell or lose an opportunity for the Celestial Kingdom (the only definition of “not being led astray” that makes sense to me) because s/he accepted the ban and its justifications – even if it and they were not God’s will.

I just don’t see how the ban not being God’s will destroys the prophetic nature of their callings – or is in any way inconsistent with the rest of our scriptural record of other, ancient prophets.

Tosh said:
“Some prefer to judge his prophets and apostles as “evil” or “racist” without bothering to explain or justify the contradictions in scripture, theory, and doctrine caused by such a determination.”

This makes no sense to me. How does acknowledging that past prophets have been “racist” (an obviously true observation) contradict “scripture, theory and doctrine” (whatever that means)? Unless you subscribe to some theory of what prophets must be that is unsupported by any number of Church teachings on prophets, not to mention the historical record? (I’ll ignore the “evil” comment, since it is clearly hyperbolic).

“…which doesn’t contradict anything but the insulted sensitivities of current social norms”

If the belief that God would not racially discriminate against his children is nothing but a “current social norm,” as opposed to a deeper tenet of New Testament Christianity, than Christianity must mean something very different than what I’ve always taken it to mean.

“My point being that if one believes that the ban was human in origin rather than from God, then one has to conjure up an explanation of why God allowed such a thing to be established in the first place as well as why it was perpetuated for more than a century.”

I agree. And I also agree that it is difficult.

“[God] would not sit idly by while such men led His Church astray, taught false doctrine, or denied sacred blessings to those who are worthy and deserving of them.”

Once Brigham Young started teaching his Adam-God Doctrine, why didn’t God strike him dead?

Aaron B

I’m not saying that God is wrong. I am saying you are wrong. HUGE difference.

And I’m just saying that maybe you know as much about me and God as you do about dogs and horses.

Racism isn’t only prejudice, but more generally the belief that privileges should be accorded to some people but not others.

Mortals generally speaking have no right to restrict the privileges of some people and not of others, but specifically speaking they do in many instances. Those in authority restrict driving privileges, voting, employment, home ownership etc in hundreds of ways. God generally and specifically has the right and authority to accord privileges to some people and not to others, which He has done in the past and will do in the future.

Some prefer to judge his prophets and apostles as “evil” or “racist” without bothering to explain or justify the contradictions in scripture, theory, and doctrine caused by such a determination. I prefer to believe my own personal witness of the testimonies of those prophets and apostles who state that the ban was from God (irregardless of whether they give a racial reason or simply say they do not know why) which doesn’t contradict anything but the insulted sensitivities of current social norms.

I believe you read my words wrong…I said ” I do not believe that NO prophet before SWK prayed about it…”

My point being that if one believes that the ban was human in origin rather than from God, then one has to conjure up an explanation of why God allowed such a thing to be established in the first place as well as why it was perpetuated for more than a century.

Such logic must then be applied to Moses and Abraham and Jacob etc. Obviously they were also liars who blamed God for restricting blood lines and priesthood authority when in truth it as really just their own small minded bigotry.

As for the priesthood ban not being an evil, well, let me venture a guess: you’re white and middle-class?

Luckily, the definition you chose does not include the distasteful belief that one gender is superior and the other inferior, and BKP states several times in this talk specifically that neither God nor himself embrace that mentality either.

I can call my dog a horse all day long. It’s still a dog.

You seem to believe that some eternal principles have ‘changed’ in the course of Church history, but I am not aware of any. Sure, God has mandated and withdrawn specific practices at His discretion when human circumstances or conditions change, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the eternal nature of those practices actually changed.

As soon as we turn things into metaphysical and unfalsifiable abstract conjectures, the discussion is over.

Because certain traits are NOT naturally interchangeable between genders(such as the ability to give birth or manufacture sperm)I personally think it is irrational to insist that they are, but your agency allows you to be irrational if you want to be.

Again, ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ are two very different things. Certain biological traits are not interchangeable between sexes. Please find me one social trait that is not interchangeable between genders.

I also feel it is a waste of time to push for something that the LDS Church (and every modern day prophet)already agrees with.

This, of course, assumes that there is some actual teaching that all of the Church and every leader agrees with. It’s not all as unified as you think.

They teach that both deserve equal respect, equal opportunities for education and personal development…

Again, I can teach all day long that my dog is a horse. It’s still a dog.

and that both are equally loved by God. They teach that both are equally redeemed in the Atonement and have an equal chance at exaltation and eternal life if they are equally obedient to the commandments and laws of God.

I don’t think I said anything contrary to this.

Some people have a difficult time understanding that the word “equal” doesn’t mean “identical”. Five dimes is equal to two quarters, or ten nickels, or fifty pennies in value-but not in appearance, size, weight, or number

I don’t have a struggle with this concept. Thanks for the lesson though.

If you are sure that God knows what “she” is doing, it seems very sexist to attempt to convince others that she’s doing it wrong.

Again, I am not saying anything about what God does. I’m talking about what you and others think that God does. I’m not saying that God is wrong. I am saying you are wrong. HUGE difference.