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	<title>Comments on: Disclosure</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: foxjones</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/#comment-56542</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foxjones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/disclosure/#comment-56542</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Todd Compton did a great job of laying all the cards on the people.  I was hoping that the Correlation Dept. would do the same with the new Church manual on Joseph Smith.  I would have liked to see in the historical outline the marriage dates includes for the general church membership to see.  Should the Church disclose this information is a better question to ask yourself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd Compton did a great job of laying all the cards on the people.  I was hoping that the Correlation Dept. would do the same with the new Church manual on Joseph Smith.  I would have liked to see in the historical outline the marriage dates includes for the general church membership to see.  Should the Church disclose this information is a better question to ask yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/#comment-56541</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/disclosure/#comment-56541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen, JimD.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen, JimD.</p>
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		<title>By: JimD</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/#comment-56540</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JimD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/disclosure/#comment-56540</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If the primary purpose of a historical treatise is so that the author can build his/her own reputation, then I agree with those saying disclosure is unnecessary.

If the primary purpose of a historical treatise is to assist the reader in forming conclusions about the &quot;truth&quot; of a matter, then of COURSE the author&#039;s own prejudices and approach are relevant.  A bit ironic how a hypothetical historian would insist that we can&#039;t take the &quot;History of the Church&quot; (or conversely, the &quot;Nauvoo Expositor&quot;) at face value without knowing more of the background of those who wrote these documents and the context in which they were written--and then demand that his own work not be evaluated through the same lens.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the primary purpose of a historical treatise is so that the author can build his/her own reputation, then I agree with those saying disclosure is unnecessary.</p>
<p>If the primary purpose of a historical treatise is to assist the reader in forming conclusions about the &#8220;truth&#8221; of a matter, then of COURSE the author&#8217;s own prejudices and approach are relevant.  A bit ironic how a hypothetical historian would insist that we can&#8217;t take the &#8220;History of the Church&#8221; (or conversely, the &#8220;Nauvoo Expositor&#8221;) at face value without knowing more of the background of those who wrote these documents and the context in which they were written&#8211;and then demand that his own work not be evaluated through the same lens.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/#comment-56539</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/disclosure/#comment-56539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[mlu, I acknowledge that possibility, but it doesn&#039;t accurately reflect my own comment.

As I have said in the past, I am a dedicated parser, so it bothers me when my words or actions are not taken at face value but rather filtered through a subjective lens of supposition and assumption - in a way like your use of the term &quot;persuasion&quot;.  I honestly am not focused on &quot;persuasion&quot; in my decision to disclose or not disclose; I am focused on &quot;real understanding&quot; - which is very different than persuasion.  Many times I don&#039;t care if someone agrees with me (if I am able to persuade them), but I always care that they understand me - regardless of whether they accept my view or not.  Sometimes disclosing or not disclosing affects a person&#039;s ability to understand - which is much more fundamental than agreement.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mlu, I acknowledge that possibility, but it doesn&#8217;t accurately reflect my own comment.</p>
<p>As I have said in the past, I am a dedicated parser, so it bothers me when my words or actions are not taken at face value but rather filtered through a subjective lens of supposition and assumption &#8211; in a way like your use of the term &#8220;persuasion&#8221;.  I honestly am not focused on &#8220;persuasion&#8221; in my decision to disclose or not disclose; I am focused on &#8220;real understanding&#8221; &#8211; which is very different than persuasion.  Many times I don&#8217;t care if someone agrees with me (if I am able to persuade them), but I always care that they understand me &#8211; regardless of whether they accept my view or not.  Sometimes disclosing or not disclosing affects a person&#8217;s ability to understand &#8211; which is much more fundamental than agreement.</p>
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		<title>By: mlu</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/#comment-56513</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mlu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 07:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/disclosure/#comment-56513</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the trend in most writing--blogs, journalism, and academic--is toward more transparency about one&#039;s biases. Everyone understands that nothing can be seen except from a point of view.

However, some of the biases that mislead the most aren&#039;t easy to disclose or to even be aware of. Since these are often common biases of certain ages and communities, we may need to wait for perceptive historians to point them out. &quot;He shared the peculiar biases of his age. . .&quot;

Much of my own growth has been a gradual recognition of biases that I earlier thought were simply &quot;the way it was,&quot; and I assume I am nowhere near the end of this process, which means most of my biases remain intact and invisible to me.


#24 What I think is most interesting is the way disclosures become yet another rhetorical device, used to persuade, sometimes by deception. (I&#039;m NOT suggesting Ray is misleading anyone, only that his focus remains upon persuasion, and the uses of disclosure are selected with that that purpose in mind).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the trend in most writing&#8211;blogs, journalism, and academic&#8211;is toward more transparency about one&#8217;s biases. Everyone understands that nothing can be seen except from a point of view.</p>
<p>However, some of the biases that mislead the most aren&#8217;t easy to disclose or to even be aware of. Since these are often common biases of certain ages and communities, we may need to wait for perceptive historians to point them out. &#8220;He shared the peculiar biases of his age. . .&#8221;</p>
<p>Much of my own growth has been a gradual recognition of biases that I earlier thought were simply &#8220;the way it was,&#8221; and I assume I am nowhere near the end of this process, which means most of my biases remain intact and invisible to me.</p>
<p>#24 What I think is most interesting is the way disclosures become yet another rhetorical device, used to persuade, sometimes by deception. (I&#8217;m NOT suggesting Ray is misleading anyone, only that his focus remains upon persuasion, and the uses of disclosure are selected with that that purpose in mind).</p>
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		<title>By: jimbob</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/#comment-56538</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jimbob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/disclosure/#comment-56538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Queuno,

Shut up, just shut up.  You had me at &quot;born/raised in Midwest to Utahns.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Queuno,</p>
<p>Shut up, just shut up.  You had me at &#8220;born/raised in Midwest to Utahns.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Peter LLC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/#comment-56537</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter LLC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/disclosure/#comment-56537</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[One more time for the quotation]

I don’t think disclosure is necessary and usually not even helpful in understanding a text, even for those fixated on authorial intent.

I like what Leslie Torch &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/arts/music/05cher.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;said&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;“If I’d said, ‘Oh, I made my record in Istanbul,’ then everyone would be like, ‘We can hear the sweetened mint tea in small glass cups.’” &lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[One more time for the quotation]</p>
<p>I don’t think disclosure is necessary and usually not even helpful in understanding a text, even for those fixated on authorial intent.</p>
<p>I like what Leslie Torch <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/arts/music/05cher.html" rel="nofollow">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>“If I’d said, ‘Oh, I made my record in Istanbul,’ then everyone would be like, ‘We can hear the sweetened mint tea in small glass cups.’” </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Peter LLC</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/#comment-56536</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter LLC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/disclosure/#comment-56536</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think disclosure is necessary and usually not even helpful in understanding a text, even for those fixated on authorial intent.

I like what Leslie Torch &lt;a&gt;said&lt;/a&gt;.&quot;&gt;said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;“If I’d said, ‘Oh, I made my record in Istanbul,’ then everyone would be like, ‘We can hear the sweetened mint tea in small glass cups.’” &lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think disclosure is necessary and usually not even helpful in understanding a text, even for those fixated on authorial intent.</p>
<p>I like what Leslie Torch <a>said</a>.&#8221;&gt;said:</p>
<blockquote><p>“If I’d said, ‘Oh, I made my record in Istanbul,’ then everyone would be like, ‘We can hear the sweetened mint tea in small glass cups.’” </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: john f.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/#comment-56512</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john f.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/disclosure/#comment-56512</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for this post Ronan.  I flip-flop on this issue.  I really liked the way the PBS documentary forced people to listen to the actual content of what people were saying in order to discern if they supported the Church or not.  Of course, for people interested in this stuff, there was no guess work involved.  The reaction of some uninformed members was pretty irritating when they claimed that Flake and Peterson were anti-Mormons, but it is also understandable.  Latter-day Saints have been conditioned by the society in which they live to be suspicious of the motivations of anyone talking about Mormonism who they do not know in advance to be Mormon.  It is a posture that stems from unfortunate and painful experiences in the real world.  So you get the phenomenon of many Latter-day Saints tuning in to the PBS documentary with a sense of trepidation about what it might say about that which is most dear to them in the world, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which they see as part and parcel with the Church itself. They are therefore suspicious of what will be presented and, one must admit, the opening bit was not something that was going to put many Latter-day Saints at ease with regard to whether it was going to be a hatchet-job considering the use of the corpse-Moroni and sinister music. (Disclaimer: I like the PBS documentary; this is an attempt to explain why I think it was natural for some or many Latter-day Saints to approach it with suspicion, which approach then colored perception of the interviewees.)  With that introduction to the documentary, everything the interviewees said was taken defensively and critically such that you get the absurd result that one of Mormonism&#039;s greatest defenders (Dan Peterson) was mistaken by some to be negative toward the Church.  What was going on was that people were reading negativity into what he and others were saying through a sort of hybrid of attribution and circling the wagons.  But upon reflection on the documentary, I have concluded that I liked what Whitney was trying to do in not identifying biases of interviewees upfront.

On the other hand, I think that upon the first viewing of the documentary, I was a little irritated at the lack of identification because I worried that it could have precisely the result that it did have among jittery LDS viewers already very concerned about how badly PBS might portray their faith.  But more generally I have found that it enriches my reading of a text when a writer of history (in any of the fields of history that I am interested in, not just Mormon history) discloses points of bias or at least of experience that implies bias. Understanding the everyone has biases and that these biases will inform what particular inferences are drawn from what appear to be facts in the historical record, such disclosure can put the text into context and facilitate analysis and engagement with the conclusion drawn.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this post Ronan.  I flip-flop on this issue.  I really liked the way the PBS documentary forced people to listen to the actual content of what people were saying in order to discern if they supported the Church or not.  Of course, for people interested in this stuff, there was no guess work involved.  The reaction of some uninformed members was pretty irritating when they claimed that Flake and Peterson were anti-Mormons, but it is also understandable.  Latter-day Saints have been conditioned by the society in which they live to be suspicious of the motivations of anyone talking about Mormonism who they do not know in advance to be Mormon.  It is a posture that stems from unfortunate and painful experiences in the real world.  So you get the phenomenon of many Latter-day Saints tuning in to the PBS documentary with a sense of trepidation about what it might say about that which is most dear to them in the world, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which they see as part and parcel with the Church itself. They are therefore suspicious of what will be presented and, one must admit, the opening bit was not something that was going to put many Latter-day Saints at ease with regard to whether it was going to be a hatchet-job considering the use of the corpse-Moroni and sinister music. (Disclaimer: I like the PBS documentary; this is an attempt to explain why I think it was natural for some or many Latter-day Saints to approach it with suspicion, which approach then colored perception of the interviewees.)  With that introduction to the documentary, everything the interviewees said was taken defensively and critically such that you get the absurd result that one of Mormonism&#8217;s greatest defenders (Dan Peterson) was mistaken by some to be negative toward the Church.  What was going on was that people were reading negativity into what he and others were saying through a sort of hybrid of attribution and circling the wagons.  But upon reflection on the documentary, I have concluded that I liked what Whitney was trying to do in not identifying biases of interviewees upfront.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I think that upon the first viewing of the documentary, I was a little irritated at the lack of identification because I worried that it could have precisely the result that it did have among jittery LDS viewers already very concerned about how badly PBS might portray their faith.  But more generally I have found that it enriches my reading of a text when a writer of history (in any of the fields of history that I am interested in, not just Mormon history) discloses points of bias or at least of experience that implies bias. Understanding the everyone has biases and that these biases will inform what particular inferences are drawn from what appear to be facts in the historical record, such disclosure can put the text into context and facilitate analysis and engagement with the conclusion drawn.</p>
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		<title>By: Dwarik</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/04/disclosure/#comment-56511</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dwarik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/disclosure/#comment-56511</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think there is also a problem with putting labels i historians (and other scientist) If i was a mormon historian anything i would find that would be pro-book of mormon would be dismissed as &quot;but you&#039;re a mormon so you&#039;re biased&quot;. while if i would publish anything against the book of mormon i would get flamed for either &quot;how could you publish this&quot; or &quot;you&#039;re not a real mormon&quot;.
Besides, who is going to assign those labels. If you let an editor assign the labels you&#039;re going to deal with just as much problems. Because then you would have to look at the lables of the editor (a.k.a. is it a mormon editor) to judge the values of the lables he hands out. If you let people assign lables themselves then what would be the use. I think most of the time their bias is obvious and if it isn&#039;t you&#039;re either reading a text you don&#039;t understand or you&#039;re dealing with an actual unbiased author.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is also a problem with putting labels i historians (and other scientist) If i was a mormon historian anything i would find that would be pro-book of mormon would be dismissed as &#8220;but you&#8217;re a mormon so you&#8217;re biased&#8221;. while if i would publish anything against the book of mormon i would get flamed for either &#8220;how could you publish this&#8221; or &#8220;you&#8217;re not a real mormon&#8221;.<br />
Besides, who is going to assign those labels. If you let an editor assign the labels you&#8217;re going to deal with just as much problems. Because then you would have to look at the lables of the editor (a.k.a. is it a mormon editor) to judge the values of the lables he hands out. If you let people assign lables themselves then what would be the use. I think most of the time their bias is obvious and if it isn&#8217;t you&#8217;re either reading a text you don&#8217;t understand or you&#8217;re dealing with an actual unbiased author.</p>
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