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	<title>Comments on: Forgive? Never!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/#comment-81276</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jared]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 01:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/forgive-never/#comment-81276</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not sure that this report amounts to anything. Most of the players named are getting close to retirement- likely even sooner with the report, or were briefly in the bigs and didn&#039;t last.

While the report named 12 players from my hometown teamof Seattle, none of them were important or even players people would remember. Let&#039;s look at the 116 win season and look at who played 2nd base. You know, career year, forearms the size of Popeye. Yeahhh...no juice there!

Too little, too late. That in a nutshell is what the report will probably be remembered for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that this report amounts to anything. Most of the players named are getting close to retirement- likely even sooner with the report, or were briefly in the bigs and didn&#8217;t last.</p>
<p>While the report named 12 players from my hometown teamof Seattle, none of them were important or even players people would remember. Let&#8217;s look at the 116 win season and look at who played 2nd base. You know, career year, forearms the size of Popeye. Yeahhh&#8230;no juice there!</p>
<p>Too little, too late. That in a nutshell is what the report will probably be remembered for.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/#comment-81275</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sarah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/forgive-never/#comment-81275</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was hoping there&#039;d be at least one &quot;I wonder what business Congress has getting involved in this&quot; post in the first day or so -- this is BCC, isn&#039;t it?  Oh, well, I&#039;ll do it.

I think it&#039;s sad.  I wish we lived in a society where most audience members would stop supporting obviously corrupt (and dangerous) entertainment venues on moral grounds.  But I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m prepared to accept a society that uses the government to try and achieve the same ends via subpoenas and jail terms, in its place.  At least not without comment.

Randomly: I&#039;m not a big baseball fan.  It makes for dull television, and the live atmosphere isn&#039;t any better than football or basketball.  It&#039;s mostly a &quot;fun to play but not to watch&quot; game for me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was hoping there&#8217;d be at least one &#8220;I wonder what business Congress has getting involved in this&#8221; post in the first day or so &#8212; this is BCC, isn&#8217;t it?  Oh, well, I&#8217;ll do it.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s sad.  I wish we lived in a society where most audience members would stop supporting obviously corrupt (and dangerous) entertainment venues on moral grounds.  But I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m prepared to accept a society that uses the government to try and achieve the same ends via subpoenas and jail terms, in its place.  At least not without comment.</p>
<p>Randomly: I&#8217;m not a big baseball fan.  It makes for dull television, and the live atmosphere isn&#8217;t any better than football or basketball.  It&#8217;s mostly a &#8220;fun to play but not to watch&#8221; game for me.</p>
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		<title>By: cj douglass</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/#comment-81274</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cj douglass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/forgive-never/#comment-81274</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m actually happy about the report. I want to see if the smug writers at ESPN (I&#039;m looking at you Peter Gammons) will   vote NO for a Clemens HOF induction as they plan to do with Bonds. Oh the fun we can have when hard-liners experience a conflict of interest!! I can see them squirming now!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m actually happy about the report. I want to see if the smug writers at ESPN (I&#8217;m looking at you Peter Gammons) will   vote NO for a Clemens HOF induction as they plan to do with Bonds. Oh the fun we can have when hard-liners experience a conflict of interest!! I can see them squirming now!!</p>
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		<title>By: Last Lemming</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/#comment-81240</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Last Lemming]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/forgive-never/#comment-81240</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps I was harsh on Joyner because after his rookie season I expected him to be the second coming of Harmon Killebrew.  But I rarely heard of him after that.

Can I at least use the Singles Ward line on Shaun Bradley?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I was harsh on Joyner because after his rookie season I expected him to be the second coming of Harmon Killebrew.  But I rarely heard of him after that.</p>
<p>Can I at least use the Singles Ward line on Shaun Bradley?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/#comment-81241</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark B.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/forgive-never/#comment-81241</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gee, and I thought from the title that this post was gonna be about Huckabee and his &quot;innocent&quot; question in the NYT magazine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee, and I thought from the title that this post was gonna be about Huckabee and his &#8220;innocent&#8221; question in the NYT magazine.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/#comment-81242</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/forgive-never/#comment-81242</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Players Union decided not to participate because they are the public face of baseball. Barry Bonds is the public face of baseball. Roger Clemens is the public face of baseball. Baseball owners KNEW their players were juicing and were slow to act. Why? Because stadium seats were being filled.

Who is more guilty? The juiced player, or the man who profits off the juiced player?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Players Union decided not to participate because they are the public face of baseball. Barry Bonds is the public face of baseball. Roger Clemens is the public face of baseball. Baseball owners KNEW their players were juicing and were slow to act. Why? Because stadium seats were being filled.</p>
<p>Who is more guilty? The juiced player, or the man who profits off the juiced player?</p>
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		<title>By: Hellmut</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/#comment-81244</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hellmut]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 05:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/forgive-never/#comment-81244</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What kind of union tolerates labor practices that may damage their members&#039; health?

The cheating is really secondary.  People use performance enhancing technology, such as glasses or hearing aids, for example, all the time.  The problem with doping is that it is dangerous.  That&#039;s why it is against the rules.

One also has to blame the league for its hypocrisy.  Actions speak louder than words.  That applies especially to failure of enforcing rules.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What kind of union tolerates labor practices that may damage their members&#8217; health?</p>
<p>The cheating is really secondary.  People use performance enhancing technology, such as glasses or hearing aids, for example, all the time.  The problem with doping is that it is dangerous.  That&#8217;s why it is against the rules.</p>
<p>One also has to blame the league for its hypocrisy.  Actions speak louder than words.  That applies especially to failure of enforcing rules.</p>
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		<title>By: queuno</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/#comment-81243</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[queuno]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 05:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/forgive-never/#comment-81243</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(Sorry, my English is horrible tonight.  Just came back from dinner with the family and DW and I had to resort to our mission languages to actually order and get service.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Sorry, my English is horrible tonight.  Just came back from dinner with the family and DW and I had to resort to our mission languages to actually order and get service.)</p>
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		<title>By: queuno</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/#comment-81245</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[queuno]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 04:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/forgive-never/#comment-81245</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Certainly the owners are to blame.  If you&#039;re going to make me pick sides between the owners and the players on labor issues, I&#039;ll take the owners.  But ... it&#039;s not like the George W. Bush was sitting there with a needle shooting up Palmeiro and Gonzalez.  Steinbrenner wasn&#039;t giving them pills.  Did they look the other way?  Yes.  Did the economics of baseball contribute to this?  Absolutely.

Here&#039;s an interview with George Mitchell outlining his process for attempting to contact the players named, and how the Players Association shot him down.  He also discusses briefly how he received some independent verification of Radomski&#039;s claims:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_wertheim/12/14/mitchell.interview/index.html?eref=T1

Mitchell references the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of kids using steroids (I don&#039;t know if that&#039;s accurate or not), and probably a large chunk of them harbor fantasies of being professional athletes, but it&#039;s safe to say that there are probably just a couple of hundred kids fantasizing about owning a sports team.  Whose offenses are more egregious:  The owners or the players?  Certainly the players.

Unfortunately, there&#039;s no way for any of these players to reclaim their innocence, if they are indeed innocent.  The entire sport has been tainted, but like Track and Field or Cycling.  Denials of &quot;I never tested positive&quot; are hollow -- Marion Jones claimed that for years and the finally admitted it, and in fact, you can&#039;t even test for HGH.

We the fans are equally guilty.  I hate to bring up the name of St. Lance, but if you own a Livestrong bracelet, are you comfortable that you&#039;re supporting someone who is innocent, despite the overwhelming probability that he&#039;s not?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly the owners are to blame.  If you&#8217;re going to make me pick sides between the owners and the players on labor issues, I&#8217;ll take the owners.  But &#8230; it&#8217;s not like the George W. Bush was sitting there with a needle shooting up Palmeiro and Gonzalez.  Steinbrenner wasn&#8217;t giving them pills.  Did they look the other way?  Yes.  Did the economics of baseball contribute to this?  Absolutely.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an interview with George Mitchell outlining his process for attempting to contact the players named, and how the Players Association shot him down.  He also discusses briefly how he received some independent verification of Radomski&#8217;s claims:<br />
<a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_wertheim/12/14/mitchell.interview/index.html?eref=T1" rel="nofollow">http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_wertheim/12/14/mitchell.interview/index.html?eref=T1</a></p>
<p>Mitchell references the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of kids using steroids (I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s accurate or not), and probably a large chunk of them harbor fantasies of being professional athletes, but it&#8217;s safe to say that there are probably just a couple of hundred kids fantasizing about owning a sports team.  Whose offenses are more egregious:  The owners or the players?  Certainly the players.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, there&#8217;s no way for any of these players to reclaim their innocence, if they are indeed innocent.  The entire sport has been tainted, but like Track and Field or Cycling.  Denials of &#8220;I never tested positive&#8221; are hollow &#8212; Marion Jones claimed that for years and the finally admitted it, and in fact, you can&#8217;t even test for HGH.</p>
<p>We the fans are equally guilty.  I hate to bring up the name of St. Lance, but if you own a Livestrong bracelet, are you comfortable that you&#8217;re supporting someone who is innocent, despite the overwhelming probability that he&#8217;s not?</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/15/forgive-never/#comment-81246</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 04:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/forgive-never/#comment-81246</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great story on Joyner, queuno.  Thank you for the link.  If a man like Joyner could succumb temporarily (even if he quit because of the guilt), just think how easy it was for so many others.  Doesn&#039;t make it any less wrong, but that article just gave me an insight I hadn&#039;t had before.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great story on Joyner, queuno.  Thank you for the link.  If a man like Joyner could succumb temporarily (even if he quit because of the guilt), just think how easy it was for so many others.  Doesn&#8217;t make it any less wrong, but that article just gave me an insight I hadn&#8217;t had before.</p>
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