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	<title>Comments on: The Story of the Stones and the Hat</title>
	<atom:link href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/</link>
	<description>A Mormon Blog</description>
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		<title>By: her amun</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85598</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[her amun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For me, Joseph&#039;s use of &quot;folk magic&quot; is nothing more than another example of &quot;the condisension of God&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me, Joseph&#8217;s use of &#8220;folk magic&#8221; is nothing more than another example of &#8220;the condisension of God&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: BHodges</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85597</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BHodges]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85597</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[*I should add I still don&#039;t mind speculating about it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*I should add I still don&#8217;t mind speculating about it.</p>
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		<title>By: BHodges</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85596</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BHodges]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85596</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Could go either way.

Additionally, one of the most significant points about the translation process is Joseph&#039;s reticence to personally explain it, saying the means were not given to this generation, only to say it was done by the power of God.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could go either way.</p>
<p>Additionally, one of the most significant points about the translation process is Joseph&#8217;s reticence to personally explain it, saying the means were not given to this generation, only to say it was done by the power of God.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85595</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85595</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BH- either that or the spirit was withdrawn because Harris was tempting the Lord.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BH- either that or the spirit was withdrawn because Harris was tempting the Lord.</p>
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		<title>By: BHodges</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85594</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BHodges]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85594</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Apparently, there was something about the Seer Stone that made it more than a placebo, or &quot;Dumbo&#039;s feather&quot; if we are to trust the account of Martin Harris who, in attempting to &quot;silence the mouths of fools&quot; switched out the seer stone for a different stone while Joseph was out of the room. Harris reported that Joseph couldn&#039;t translate, and was shocked, saying &quot;what happened, all is dark as Egypt!&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently, there was something about the Seer Stone that made it more than a placebo, or &#8220;Dumbo&#8217;s feather&#8221; if we are to trust the account of Martin Harris who, in attempting to &#8220;silence the mouths of fools&#8221; switched out the seer stone for a different stone while Joseph was out of the room. Harris reported that Joseph couldn&#8217;t translate, and was shocked, saying &#8220;what happened, all is dark as Egypt!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85593</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85593</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The curtain motif seems to derive from Martin Harris.  (D. Peterson discusses it &lt;a href=&quot;http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&amp;id=582&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; [see the text associated with footnotes 19-22].)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The curtain motif seems to derive from Martin Harris.  (D. Peterson discusses it <a href="http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&amp;id=582" rel="nofollow">here</a> [see the text associated with footnotes 19-22].)</p>
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		<title>By: john f.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85592</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john f.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85592</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Justin, I think you&#039;re right about that, actually. I wonder if anything can be inferred from the fact that some Latter-day Saint artists have chosen to depict it that way?  It might be similar to the fact that people have invented a donkey in the Nativity story.

On depictions of the translation, I should note one thing in response to smb.  The original post states &lt;i&gt;Some have felt Smith saw words in the stones, others have felt he connected thereby with the meaning of the glyphs. This has not been settled, and Smith did not give much direct indication for historians.&lt;/i&gt;

David Whitmer&#039;s account, however, relates the following about the time he served as scribe:

&lt;blockquote&gt;A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Thus, according to this account, as Ben S. pointed out in # 25, the two are not mutually exclusive and at least one contemporary observer of the process explains that both glyphs and English words appeared in the stone together.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin, I think you&#8217;re right about that, actually. I wonder if anything can be inferred from the fact that some Latter-day Saint artists have chosen to depict it that way?  It might be similar to the fact that people have invented a donkey in the Nativity story.</p>
<p>On depictions of the translation, I should note one thing in response to smb.  The original post states <i>Some have felt Smith saw words in the stones, others have felt he connected thereby with the meaning of the glyphs. This has not been settled, and Smith did not give much direct indication for historians.</i></p>
<p>David Whitmer&#8217;s account, however, relates the following about the time he served as scribe:</p>
<blockquote><p>A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.</p></blockquote>
<p>Thus, according to this account, as Ben S. pointed out in # 25, the two are not mutually exclusive and at least one contemporary observer of the process explains that both glyphs and English words appeared in the stone together.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85591</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John, I don&#039;t believe O. Cowdery&#039;s description mentions a screen/curtain.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I don&#8217;t believe O. Cowdery&#8217;s description mentions a screen/curtain.</p>
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		<title>By: Left Field</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85590</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Left Field]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85590</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Katie, I would have thought that a soft hat of some sort would be preferable for excluding light since it could conform to the contours of the face better than a rigid top hat.  Also with a soft hat, you could just cover the eyes and nose, leaving the mouth free for dictating.  The large rigid opening of a top hat would probably have required covering the face all the way to the chin which would muffle the voice, as you said.  How close the stone was to the face would really depend on the hat, but Joseph probably wasn&#039;t afflicted with presbyopia at his young age.

Perhaps &lt;em&gt;South Park&lt;/em&gt; chose to depict a top hat because of its current association with stage magic.

I&#039;m not sure why, but my impression is that people often find the hat more troubling than the seerstone itself.  I see the hat as just being a convenient way of excluding light.  He could have drawn the blinds, but then the scribe would have had difficulty writing.  He might have used a cloth or blanket of some sort, but the hat just seems much simpler to use.  I don&#039;t see the hat as being any more integral to the process than the chair he was sitting on.  The use of a hat to exclude light reminds me of a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.quietworks.com/FRAMES_FILES/BJ_SPECIFICATIONS/BJ_NEW_HOME_FRAME_.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;photographer&#039;s focusing cloth&lt;/a&gt; used with old large-format cameras, and to me seems a fairly mundane part of the translation process.  But perhaps my perception is influenced by the fact that I&#039;ve spent a lot of time with my face in a focusing cloth myself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katie, I would have thought that a soft hat of some sort would be preferable for excluding light since it could conform to the contours of the face better than a rigid top hat.  Also with a soft hat, you could just cover the eyes and nose, leaving the mouth free for dictating.  The large rigid opening of a top hat would probably have required covering the face all the way to the chin which would muffle the voice, as you said.  How close the stone was to the face would really depend on the hat, but Joseph probably wasn&#8217;t afflicted with presbyopia at his young age.</p>
<p>Perhaps <em>South Park</em> chose to depict a top hat because of its current association with stage magic.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure why, but my impression is that people often find the hat more troubling than the seerstone itself.  I see the hat as just being a convenient way of excluding light.  He could have drawn the blinds, but then the scribe would have had difficulty writing.  He might have used a cloth or blanket of some sort, but the hat just seems much simpler to use.  I don&#8217;t see the hat as being any more integral to the process than the chair he was sitting on.  The use of a hat to exclude light reminds me of a <a href="http://www.quietworks.com/FRAMES_FILES/BJ_SPECIFICATIONS/BJ_NEW_HOME_FRAME_.htm" rel="nofollow">photographer&#8217;s focusing cloth</a> used with old large-format cameras, and to me seems a fairly mundane part of the translation process.  But perhaps my perception is influenced by the fact that I&#8217;ve spent a lot of time with my face in a focusing cloth myself.</p>
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		<title>By: john f.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/07/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85589</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john f.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 11:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-story-of-the-stones-and-the-hat/#comment-85589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam K., the artistic renderings to which you refer are more or less consistent with Oliver Cowdery&#039;s desription, so they are not dishonest or inconsistent.  As to why many artists have preferred to use this scenario in their depictions of the translation, there could be many reasons.

One main reason might be that due to Oliver Cowdery&#039;s place in the Doctrine and Covenants in the context of his role as scribe during the translation process of the 116 pages (see Doctrine and Covenants &lt;a href=&quot;http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/8&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Section 8&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/9&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Section 9&lt;/a&gt;), the Oliver Cowdery description of translation with Joseph sitting behind a screen reading from the plates with the use of the U&amp;T seems to be the default depiction.

It is also more aesthetically interesting or pleasing, I would think, since the face isn&#039;t covered up.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam K., the artistic renderings to which you refer are more or less consistent with Oliver Cowdery&#8217;s desription, so they are not dishonest or inconsistent.  As to why many artists have preferred to use this scenario in their depictions of the translation, there could be many reasons.</p>
<p>One main reason might be that due to Oliver Cowdery&#8217;s place in the Doctrine and Covenants in the context of his role as scribe during the translation process of the 116 pages (see Doctrine and Covenants <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/8" rel="nofollow">Section 8</a> and <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/9" rel="nofollow">Section 9</a>), the Oliver Cowdery description of translation with Joseph sitting behind a screen reading from the plates with the use of the U&amp;T seems to be the default depiction.</p>
<p>It is also more aesthetically interesting or pleasing, I would think, since the face isn&#8217;t covered up.</p>
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