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	<title>Comments on: The Problem of 2 Nephi 25:23</title>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/15/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102970</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102970</guid>
		<description>#80 - If you say so, although going back one more verse (v.20) doesn&#039;t support how you get to your conclusion.  It supports your ultimate conclusion, just not the overall interpretation of the passage as a whole.

It&#039;s an interesting interpretation - that fits very well with many of the previous ones in this thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#80 &#8211; If you say so, although going back one more verse (v.20) doesn&#8217;t support how you get to your conclusion.  It supports your ultimate conclusion, just not the overall interpretation of the passage as a whole.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an interesting interpretation &#8211; that fits very well with many of the previous ones in this thread.</p>
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		<title>By: David Smith</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/15/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102968</link>
		<dc:creator>David Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 04:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102968</guid>
		<description>This entire verse is taken out of context  by all the explanations above, every commentary, and controversial work about the church I have read concerning this verse.  Follow this line of reasoning.  The preceding verse 21 says &quot;...things I write shall be kept and preserved, and handed down from generation to generation...(verse 22) shall go from generation to generation as long as the earth shall stand..&quot;  Who labored to hand it down from generation to generation?  Our predecesors!  Who is laboring to hand it down now?  We are! Who is going to labor and hand it down as long as the earth shall stand?  Our posterity!  The correct conclusion:  eventhough &quot;...we [believers] labor diligently to write, to persuade our children...brethern, to believe in Christ...&quot;  even &quot;after all we do&quot; we all (predecesors, us, and  posterity alike) are saved by grace.  None of us can take any credit for our diligent labor or provide any redemptive power to the people we bring to Christ.  It is grace that saves us as well as those we labor to who believe no matter what generation we are in that bring people to Christ!  I repeat, you cannot take any credit for your &quot;labor&quot; to save people or bring them to Christ &quot;even after we can do&quot; &quot;for it is by grace that we are all saved.&quot;  It&#039;s that simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This entire verse is taken out of context  by all the explanations above, every commentary, and controversial work about the church I have read concerning this verse.  Follow this line of reasoning.  The preceding verse 21 says &#8220;&#8230;things I write shall be kept and preserved, and handed down from generation to generation&#8230;(verse 22) shall go from generation to generation as long as the earth shall stand..&#8221;  Who labored to hand it down from generation to generation?  Our predecesors!  Who is laboring to hand it down now?  We are! Who is going to labor and hand it down as long as the earth shall stand?  Our posterity!  The correct conclusion:  eventhough &#8220;&#8230;we [believers] labor diligently to write, to persuade our children&#8230;brethern, to believe in Christ&#8230;&#8221;  even &#8220;after all we do&#8221; we all (predecesors, us, and  posterity alike) are saved by grace.  None of us can take any credit for our diligent labor or provide any redemptive power to the people we bring to Christ.  It is grace that saves us as well as those we labor to who believe no matter what generation we are in that bring people to Christ!  I repeat, you cannot take any credit for your &#8220;labor&#8221; to save people or bring them to Christ &#8220;even after we can do&#8221; &#8220;for it is by grace that we are all saved.&#8221;  It&#8217;s that simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/15/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102966</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102966</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t the time to read every comment so I hope I&#039;m not being redundant:

I see a lot of the Book of Mormon - especially the parts that talk about the afterlife - as exhortation rather than theology.  Alma 34:33-34 is a good example: to take those verses as theology would seem to contradict Doc&amp;Cov 138:31-37.  The teachings about life after death in the Book of Mormon are usually a bit simplistic, and only fit in vaguely with the doctrine given in Doc&amp;Cov 76 and other places.  At one time I thought that this was because the prophets in the Book of Mormon just hadn&#039;t received the detailed revelation that Joseph Smith did.  Whether or not that&#039;s so, I&#039;m now comfortable thinking that pretty much all of the passages in the Book of Mormon that mention life after death are exhortation and not strict theology.

After all, it wouldn&#039;t be very effective to call people to repentance by meticulously laying out the varying degrees of salvation.  How many of us have secretly thought to ourselves: well, even if I only made the Telestial Kingdom that still woudn&#039;t be so bad?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t the time to read every comment so I hope I&#8217;m not being redundant:</p>
<p>I see a lot of the Book of Mormon &#8211; especially the parts that talk about the afterlife &#8211; as exhortation rather than theology.  Alma 34:33-34 is a good example: to take those verses as theology would seem to contradict Doc&amp;Cov 138:31-37.  The teachings about life after death in the Book of Mormon are usually a bit simplistic, and only fit in vaguely with the doctrine given in Doc&amp;Cov 76 and other places.  At one time I thought that this was because the prophets in the Book of Mormon just hadn&#8217;t received the detailed revelation that Joseph Smith did.  Whether or not that&#8217;s so, I&#8217;m now comfortable thinking that pretty much all of the passages in the Book of Mormon that mention life after death are exhortation and not strict theology.</p>
<p>After all, it wouldn&#8217;t be very effective to call people to repentance by meticulously laying out the varying degrees of salvation.  How many of us have secretly thought to ourselves: well, even if I only made the Telestial Kingdom that still woudn&#8217;t be so bad?</p>
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		<title>By: onelowerlight</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/15/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102964</link>
		<dc:creator>onelowerlight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102964</guid>
		<description>He&#039;s teaching New Testament (first and second half) at BYU, but as far as projects he&#039;s working on, I don&#039;t have any idea.  He has had a lot of health problems in recent years, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s teaching New Testament (first and second half) at BYU, but as far as projects he&#8217;s working on, I don&#8217;t have any idea.  He has had a lot of health problems in recent years, though.</p>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/15/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102962</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102962</guid>
		<description>What is Stephen Robinson doing these days?  It&#039;s been ten years since he&#039;s published anything and you never hear from him anymore except his past work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is Stephen Robinson doing these days?  It&#8217;s been ten years since he&#8217;s published anything and you never hear from him anymore except his past work.</p>
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		<title>By: john f.</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/15/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102960</link>
		<dc:creator>john f.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102960</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s why we should exercise faith in the Atonement and repent every day.  If we have been baptized and we are doing this, then every time we partake of the Sacrament we renew our baptismal covenants and thereby draw closer to God.  It is still the grace of Christ that cleanses us, but we have to believe that this will actually happen despite our imperfections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s why we should exercise faith in the Atonement and repent every day.  If we have been baptized and we are doing this, then every time we partake of the Sacrament we renew our baptismal covenants and thereby draw closer to God.  It is still the grace of Christ that cleanses us, but we have to believe that this will actually happen despite our imperfections.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/15/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102958</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102958</guid>
		<description>amber, most of us can&#039;t, imo.  Often we are the worst judges of our own actions.

In the end, I believe this is a matter of faith - holding tightly to the belief that our sincere efforts will be accepted, pitifully inadequate as they might be.  If everything we do is what we believe He wants us to do, that, imo, is all we can do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>amber, most of us can&#8217;t, imo.  Often we are the worst judges of our own actions.</p>
<p>In the end, I believe this is a matter of faith &#8211; holding tightly to the belief that our sincere efforts will be accepted, pitifully inadequate as they might be.  If everything we do is what we believe He wants us to do, that, imo, is all we can do.</p>
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		<title>By: amber</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/15/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102956</link>
		<dc:creator>amber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 01:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102956</guid>
		<description>So (especially re. #43 &amp; #44), how do we tell if, in any given situation, we are doing &quot;all we can do&quot;?

How are we able to judge our capacities in this way? Do we ultimately need confirmation of HG?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So (especially re. #43 &amp; #44), how do we tell if, in any given situation, we are doing &#8220;all we can do&#8221;?</p>
<p>How are we able to judge our capacities in this way? Do we ultimately need confirmation of HG?</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/15/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102954</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102954</guid>
		<description>#66 - &quot;Who&quot; said what I have been trying to say much better.  Rather than &quot;grace&quot;, I like &quot;God&#039;s gracious gift(s)&quot;.  It avoids the theological spats that have arisen over the years and puts things in an interesting light.

The very ability to choose right from wrong is a gift of grace (a gracious gift from God), promised before the Fall for our condition after the Fall when the Father rejected Lucifer and chose Jehovah.  It was activated by our choice to reject Lucifer, and became active in our individual lives at that point - before we entered mortality.  Becoming &quot;free&quot; to choose was the first fruits of grace - a gift that made it possible for us even to have this discussion.  In that sense ONLY, God&#039;s grace is a result of our works - our first choice to accept His plan which included the gracious gifts that would be given within it.

The next gift of grace was the promise that we will not be condemned because of the natural tendencies we inherit as a result of the Fall when we are born - that we will be judged by our sins and not by the natural results of Adam&#039;s transgression.  This means that God&#039;s grace frees us to pursue perfection (completeness, wholeness, full development) without having to expend enormous energy worrying about whether we are &quot;good enough&quot; to be saved (avoid eternal damnation).  We are, and we have been - at the very least in a kingdom of glory in the presence of a member of the Godhead.  It frees us to focus on becoming godly / Christ-like - of channeling our efforts toward the Celestial Kingdom.

It changes repentance from the process of beating ourselves up over our weaknesses and imperfections into the process of acquiring the characteristics Jesus articulated (in the Sermon on the Mount, for example) as the pathway to perfection - defining our &quot;works&quot; as the repentant result of what we strive to **become** rather than the laundry list of what we *do*.  Of course, it includes our actions, but it points those actions toward those things that turn us into the people God has commanded we become.  It changes repentance from a review of our daily and weekly mistakes into an evaluation of our progress toward perfection (becoming complete, whole, fully developed). It changes repentance from an effort to suppress or repress natural tendencies (never making mistakes) to an effort to develop characteristics that will eliminate those tendencies.  For example, it goes from &quot;controlling my temper&quot; to &quot;developing patience and becoming poor in spirit&quot; - which, when accomplished fully,   eliminates the tendency to lose one&#039;s temper as a direct result.  All of that stems from the recognition that &quot;I don&#039;t have to change my life and THEN turn to God for His gracious acceptance of MY effort, but rather I can work my hardest to become what He has asked me to become because I know he won&#039;t condemn me for the weaknesses that get in my way as I strive to do so.&quot;

The Bible Dictionary defines repentance as &quot;a change of mind, i.e., a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world&quot;.  I find that absolutely fascinating and extremely thought-provoking.

One final point, then I&#039;ll shut up:

We decry deathbed repentance for those who choose to dismiss God&#039;s help until they &quot;need&quot; it right before they die.  Denying that grace can be an active, enabling power in our lives that can &quot;save us&quot; from a whole lot of crap in this life and mold us into who we are commanded to become without regard to our &quot;worthiness&quot; or &quot;works&quot; or &quot;membership&quot; or any other qualifier other than our sincere effort might not be the same as deathbed repentance, but it certainly is the same basic attitude - since each person is saying, in essence, &quot;Leave me alone until I need you.  I&#039;ll put in my best effort, THEN you can take care of the rest, when I am almost dead or simply exhausted.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#66 &#8211; &#8220;Who&#8221; said what I have been trying to say much better.  Rather than &#8220;grace&#8221;, I like &#8220;God&#8217;s gracious gift(s)&#8221;.  It avoids the theological spats that have arisen over the years and puts things in an interesting light.</p>
<p>The very ability to choose right from wrong is a gift of grace (a gracious gift from God), promised before the Fall for our condition after the Fall when the Father rejected Lucifer and chose Jehovah.  It was activated by our choice to reject Lucifer, and became active in our individual lives at that point &#8211; before we entered mortality.  Becoming &#8220;free&#8221; to choose was the first fruits of grace &#8211; a gift that made it possible for us even to have this discussion.  In that sense ONLY, God&#8217;s grace is a result of our works &#8211; our first choice to accept His plan which included the gracious gifts that would be given within it.</p>
<p>The next gift of grace was the promise that we will not be condemned because of the natural tendencies we inherit as a result of the Fall when we are born &#8211; that we will be judged by our sins and not by the natural results of Adam&#8217;s transgression.  This means that God&#8217;s grace frees us to pursue perfection (completeness, wholeness, full development) without having to expend enormous energy worrying about whether we are &#8220;good enough&#8221; to be saved (avoid eternal damnation).  We are, and we have been &#8211; at the very least in a kingdom of glory in the presence of a member of the Godhead.  It frees us to focus on becoming godly / Christ-like &#8211; of channeling our efforts toward the Celestial Kingdom.</p>
<p>It changes repentance from the process of beating ourselves up over our weaknesses and imperfections into the process of acquiring the characteristics Jesus articulated (in the Sermon on the Mount, for example) as the pathway to perfection &#8211; defining our &#8220;works&#8221; as the repentant result of what we strive to **become** rather than the laundry list of what we *do*.  Of course, it includes our actions, but it points those actions toward those things that turn us into the people God has commanded we become.  It changes repentance from a review of our daily and weekly mistakes into an evaluation of our progress toward perfection (becoming complete, whole, fully developed). It changes repentance from an effort to suppress or repress natural tendencies (never making mistakes) to an effort to develop characteristics that will eliminate those tendencies.  For example, it goes from &#8220;controlling my temper&#8221; to &#8220;developing patience and becoming poor in spirit&#8221; &#8211; which, when accomplished fully,   eliminates the tendency to lose one&#8217;s temper as a direct result.  All of that stems from the recognition that &#8220;I don&#8217;t have to change my life and THEN turn to God for His gracious acceptance of MY effort, but rather I can work my hardest to become what He has asked me to become because I know he won&#8217;t condemn me for the weaknesses that get in my way as I strive to do so.&#8221;</p>
<p>The Bible Dictionary defines repentance as &#8220;a change of mind, i.e., a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world&#8221;.  I find that absolutely fascinating and extremely thought-provoking.</p>
<p>One final point, then I&#8217;ll shut up:</p>
<p>We decry deathbed repentance for those who choose to dismiss God&#8217;s help until they &#8220;need&#8221; it right before they die.  Denying that grace can be an active, enabling power in our lives that can &#8220;save us&#8221; from a whole lot of crap in this life and mold us into who we are commanded to become without regard to our &#8220;worthiness&#8221; or &#8220;works&#8221; or &#8220;membership&#8221; or any other qualifier other than our sincere effort might not be the same as deathbed repentance, but it certainly is the same basic attitude &#8211; since each person is saying, in essence, &#8220;Leave me alone until I need you.  I&#8217;ll put in my best effort, THEN you can take care of the rest, when I am almost dead or simply exhausted.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Nielson</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/15/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102952</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Nielson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/the-problem-of-2-nephi-2523/#comment-102952</guid>
		<description>JNS:

Thanks for your response #65.  Thanks also to those who have addressed my concerns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JNS:</p>
<p>Thanks for your response #65.  Thanks also to those who have addressed my concerns.</p>
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