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	<title>Comments on: A Footnote to &#8220;The Strength of the Mormon Position&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/</link>
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		<title>By: Mark Hansen</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23741</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Hansen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The whole problem with using this as a &quot;defence&quot; of mormonism is that it assumes that authority means anything to you.  The protestants often get around the whole issue of being lost in the middle by claiming that you don&#039;t need any authority.  If you believe, you can preach.

But it does make us mormons feel good to contemplate...

MRKH]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole problem with using this as a &#8220;defence&#8221; of mormonism is that it assumes that authority means anything to you.  The protestants often get around the whole issue of being lost in the middle by claiming that you don&#8217;t need any authority.  If you believe, you can preach.</p>
<p>But it does make us mormons feel good to contemplate&#8230;</p>
<p>MRKH</p>
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		<title>By: Edje</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23740</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edje]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:14:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A few more sources on Dr. Reiner:
New York Times, 19 Dec 1904.
“Wrecked Professor’s Room.”
“Students Did It After Complaining of Remarks Made by Him.
“Special to The New York Times.

   “Philadelphia, Dec. 18.—Officers of the College of St. Tomas, at Villa Nova, are investigating the actions of certain students who broke into the rooms of a professor, destroying his portrait and other property. The students are said to have been dissatisfied with remarks made by him.
   “The professor involved is John Reiner, and recently the students protested to President De Lurey concerning some of Reiner’s utterances. The portrait of Prof. Reiner, which hung in his room, was torn to shreds, and his books and furniture were damaged.”
---------

Rev. Edward F. Jenkins mentions Dr. Reiner briefly in paragraphs on 1901-1902 and 1904-1905 in “A History of the Villanova Chemistry and Chemical Engineering Departments from 1847 to 1962” (&lt;a href=&quot;http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/CHM_CHE_history.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;).
---------

NYT 11 Mar 1914
“Priest Pleads Duress.
“Forced to Admit Full Responsibility for Stock Losses, He Says.
“Special to The New York Times.
   “Philadelphia, March 10.—The Rev. Laurence Delurey, former Treasurer of the St. Augustine College at Villa Nova, who was made defendant yesterday in a suit brought by John M. Reiner, once a professor in the college, for the recovery of a loan of $30,000 which the priest admitted he had lost in stock speculation, declared today on the witness stand that he had signed under duress a statement to the effect that his dealings were without the authority of the college.”
   “Father Delurey added that his admissions were made in the fear that a refusal to relieve the institution of responsibility would mean the revocation of his priestly functions.
   “‘The statement was sent to me with instructions to me from my superiors to sign it,’ testified the priest. ‘Under the circumstances I could not well do anything but sign it. It was a sample step for me for reinstatement.’
   “The money invested in the mining company proved a bad venture for the priest, who had hoped thereby to realize profits to help pay the expenses of the college. He realized nothing from the stocks.”
---------

David R. Contosta, in &lt;i&gt;Villanova University, 1842-1992: American—Catholic—Augustinian&lt;/i&gt; (Penn State Press, 1995, p. 78-80), describes the mining/loan suit and identifies John M.’s wife as Frieda (&lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=UvkoDjdphhcC&amp;pg=PA80&amp;lpg=PA80&amp;dq=villanova+reiner&amp;source=web&amp;ots=cukNdpcb08&amp;sig=togEv4W_huiZ1LfpKXQJQuDWYzM#PPA80,M1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few more sources on Dr. Reiner:<br />
New York Times, 19 Dec 1904.<br />
“Wrecked Professor’s Room.”<br />
“Students Did It After Complaining of Remarks Made by Him.<br />
“Special to The New York Times.</p>
<p>   “Philadelphia, Dec. 18.—Officers of the College of St. Tomas, at Villa Nova, are investigating the actions of certain students who broke into the rooms of a professor, destroying his portrait and other property. The students are said to have been dissatisfied with remarks made by him.<br />
   “The professor involved is John Reiner, and recently the students protested to President De Lurey concerning some of Reiner’s utterances. The portrait of Prof. Reiner, which hung in his room, was torn to shreds, and his books and furniture were damaged.”<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>Rev. Edward F. Jenkins mentions Dr. Reiner briefly in paragraphs on 1901-1902 and 1904-1905 in “A History of the Villanova Chemistry and Chemical Engineering Departments from 1847 to 1962” (<a href="http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/CHM_CHE_history.html" rel="nofollow">link</a>).<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>NYT 11 Mar 1914<br />
“Priest Pleads Duress.<br />
“Forced to Admit Full Responsibility for Stock Losses, He Says.<br />
“Special to The New York Times.<br />
   “Philadelphia, March 10.—The Rev. Laurence Delurey, former Treasurer of the St. Augustine College at Villa Nova, who was made defendant yesterday in a suit brought by John M. Reiner, once a professor in the college, for the recovery of a loan of $30,000 which the priest admitted he had lost in stock speculation, declared today on the witness stand that he had signed under duress a statement to the effect that his dealings were without the authority of the college.”<br />
   “Father Delurey added that his admissions were made in the fear that a refusal to relieve the institution of responsibility would mean the revocation of his priestly functions.<br />
   “‘The statement was sent to me with instructions to me from my superiors to sign it,’ testified the priest. ‘Under the circumstances I could not well do anything but sign it. It was a sample step for me for reinstatement.’<br />
   “The money invested in the mining company proved a bad venture for the priest, who had hoped thereby to realize profits to help pay the expenses of the college. He realized nothing from the stocks.”<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>David R. Contosta, in <i>Villanova University, 1842-1992: American—Catholic—Augustinian</i> (Penn State Press, 1995, p. 78-80), describes the mining/loan suit and identifies John M.’s wife as Frieda (<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=UvkoDjdphhcC&amp;pg=PA80&amp;lpg=PA80&amp;dq=villanova+reiner&amp;source=web&amp;ots=cukNdpcb08&amp;sig=togEv4W_huiZ1LfpKXQJQuDWYzM#PPA80,M1" rel="nofollow">link</a>).</p>
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		<title>By: Johnna Cornett</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Johnna Cornett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What amazes me is how familiar I am with the quote--that Mormons are ingnoramuses and the truth must be us (LDS) or them (Catholic)--yet I am completely unfamiliar with the man who said it, and said it surprisingly long ago]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What amazes me is how familiar I am with the quote&#8211;that Mormons are ingnoramuses and the truth must be us (LDS) or them (Catholic)&#8211;yet I am completely unfamiliar with the man who said it, and said it surprisingly long ago</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23738</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23738</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The article&#039;s practically half-written here on the pages of the BCC!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article&#8217;s practically half-written here on the pages of the BCC!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23737</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with #6, BTW, that an article on Reiner and this whole episode would be interesting.  I&#039;m not going to do it, so if anyone else wants to run with it please feel free to do so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with #6, BTW, that an article on Reiner and this whole episode would be interesting.  I&#8217;m not going to do it, so if anyone else wants to run with it please feel free to do so.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23736</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23736</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here, courtesy of my correspondent, is the page from the autobiography.  It&#039;s interesting that this actually gives Whitney&#039;s response:

&lt;blockquote&gt;MORMONS ARE ALL IGNORAMUSES

Dr. John M. Reiner, a Roman Catholic scholar who had nearly a dozen languages at his command and seemed to know a great deal about law, literature, history, and science, visited Salt lake City in January 1898. He and Elder Orson R. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve became well acquainted. One day he told Brother Whitney: &quot;You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don&#039;t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other position tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Roman Catholic Church.
The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that&#039;s all there is to it. The Protestant sects haven&#039;t a leg to stand on; for if we are right, we cut them off long ago as apostates; and if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism&#039;s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.&quot;

Elder Whitney agreed with some that was said, but in no uncertain terms, told him he was mistaken: &quot;Don&#039;t deceive yourself with the notion that we &#039;Mormons&#039; are not aware of the strength of our own position. We know it better than anyone else can know it. We have not all been to college; we can not all speak the dead languages; and we may be ignoramuses as you say. But we know we are right and we know you are wrong&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here, courtesy of my correspondent, is the page from the autobiography.  It&#8217;s interesting that this actually gives Whitney&#8217;s response:</p>
<blockquote><p>MORMONS ARE ALL IGNORAMUSES</p>
<p>Dr. John M. Reiner, a Roman Catholic scholar who had nearly a dozen languages at his command and seemed to know a great deal about law, literature, history, and science, visited Salt lake City in January 1898. He and Elder Orson R. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve became well acquainted. One day he told Brother Whitney: &#8220;You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don&#8217;t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other position tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Roman Catholic Church.<br />
The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that&#8217;s all there is to it. The Protestant sects haven&#8217;t a leg to stand on; for if we are right, we cut them off long ago as apostates; and if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism&#8217;s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.&#8221;</p>
<p>Elder Whitney agreed with some that was said, but in no uncertain terms, told him he was mistaken: &#8220;Don&#8217;t deceive yourself with the notion that we &#8216;Mormons&#8217; are not aware of the strength of our own position. We know it better than anyone else can know it. We have not all been to college; we can not all speak the dead languages; and we may be ignoramuses as you say. But we know we are right and we know you are wrong&#8221;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[smb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This exclusion of Protestants by creating a Catholic or Mormon dualism is pretty old hat for the Mormons. They were preaching it in church organs from the late 1830s on.  It sounds like they were delighted to have a seceding Protestant agree with them.  Great to have the name and thanks for sharing, Kevin.  Sometimes these seceding &lt;em&gt;agents provocateurs &lt;/em&gt;provide surprising glimpses into the functioning of broader culture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This exclusion of Protestants by creating a Catholic or Mormon dualism is pretty old hat for the Mormons. They were preaching it in church organs from the late 1830s on.  It sounds like they were delighted to have a seceding Protestant agree with them.  Great to have the name and thanks for sharing, Kevin.  Sometimes these seceding <em>agents provocateurs </em>provide surprising glimpses into the functioning of broader culture.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23734</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23734</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, if you want to read his discourse, go &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lib.utah.edu/digital/unews/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and do a search on catholic reiner.  Then click on the Deseret News article that is entitled &quot;Discourse.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, if you want to read his discourse, go <a href="http://www.lib.utah.edu/digital/unews/" rel="nofollow">here</a> and do a search on catholic reiner.  Then click on the Deseret News article that is entitled &#8220;Discourse.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23733</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Barney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23733</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We learn more about him from &quot;An Impressive Service,&quot; Deseret News 22 January 1898.  It&#039;s too long to type, but highlights:

- There were about 7,000 present for his address in the Tabernacle.  His candor won the sympathy of the listerners.

- It was given on a chapter of the Bible selected just before the meeting; most of his address was extemporaneous.

- Some thought he was a Jesuit, but this is not true.  He was a lay Catholic and a married man.

- Also, he was not connected with an educational institution in New York City, another misconception.  His profession was literature, especially journalism.

- He was the author of historical and philosophical research.  Especially interested in religious controversy, ecclesiastical history and literary criticism.

- He occasionally appears before the public as a lecturer, and he is an editorial contributor to several NY newspapers.

- He is a doctor of laws and philosophy.

- He arrive in SLC about three weeks before on private business, and promptly undertook an earnest and thorough investigation of LDS claims.

- He visiting many towns in the state and made many friends among the leading Saints.

- He will leave to return to the east in a day or two; is currently the guest of John Beck [not the Miami Dolphins quarterback, though].]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We learn more about him from &#8220;An Impressive Service,&#8221; Deseret News 22 January 1898.  It&#8217;s too long to type, but highlights:</p>
<p>- There were about 7,000 present for his address in the Tabernacle.  His candor won the sympathy of the listerners.</p>
<p>- It was given on a chapter of the Bible selected just before the meeting; most of his address was extemporaneous.</p>
<p>- Some thought he was a Jesuit, but this is not true.  He was a lay Catholic and a married man.</p>
<p>- Also, he was not connected with an educational institution in New York City, another misconception.  His profession was literature, especially journalism.</p>
<p>- He was the author of historical and philosophical research.  Especially interested in religious controversy, ecclesiastical history and literary criticism.</p>
<p>- He occasionally appears before the public as a lecturer, and he is an editorial contributor to several NY newspapers.</p>
<p>- He is a doctor of laws and philosophy.</p>
<p>- He arrive in SLC about three weeks before on private business, and promptly undertook an earnest and thorough investigation of LDS claims.</p>
<p>- He visiting many towns in the state and made many friends among the leading Saints.</p>
<p>- He will leave to return to the east in a day or two; is currently the guest of John Beck [not the Miami Dolphins quarterback, though].</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/16/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23732</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/a-footnote-to-the-strength-of-the-mormon-position/#comment-23732</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=U8BJAAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=RA4-PA25&amp;dq=%22Dr.+Reiner%22&amp;as_brr=1#PRA3-PA27,M1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; another interesting source.  On p. 27, Reiner says Protestants are anti-Christian infidels.  Pp. 74-93 contain a paper by Dr. Reiner in which he alleges, among other things, that Democracy is the child of Catholicism, that Jefferson was just a modern Catholic scholastic with respect to his views on government, and that the age before Protestantism was one of liberty and progress that has now been destroyed by barbarians.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=U8BJAAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=RA4-PA25&amp;dq=%22Dr.+Reiner%22&amp;as_brr=1#PRA3-PA27,M1" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s</a> another interesting source.  On p. 27, Reiner says Protestants are anti-Christian infidels.  Pp. 74-93 contain a paper by Dr. Reiner in which he alleges, among other things, that Democracy is the child of Catholicism, that Jefferson was just a modern Catholic scholastic with respect to his views on government, and that the age before Protestantism was one of liberty and progress that has now been destroyed by barbarians.</p>
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